Ms CARNEY - 2005-08-24
Yesterday, when asked about incorrect travel payments, you willingly advised the parliament that you were underpaid by $60. You deliberately failed to disclose, however, any other details of overpayments or underpayments made to other ministers. The Auditor-General did not refer to you missing out on $60 in his report,; he referred to specific instances of overpayments. If this is just about a few clerical errors, why do you refuse to disclose all of the overpayments and underpayments so that Territorians can be assured that there has been no rorting?
ANSWER
Madam Speaker, we went through this yesterday. I repeat,: that the Auditor-General didpresented a report to this parliament, as he does twice a year. He identified what he has clearly said a number of times in his report and in the media that it is administrative errors we are dealing with.
In total, for ministers, including the member for Blain as the then Opposition Leader, as this was a random sample of claims between June 2003 and June 2004, there were some administrative errors. He was very clear about that. The nett result was underpayment.
There has been no evidence, and I believe the …
Ms Carney: Because you have not, no one else does!
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I ask the Opposition Leader, isif she is saying that the Auditor-General has misled this parliament?
Members interjecting.
Ms MARTIN: Is she saying that, when he says there have been administrative errors that he has talked aboutdiscussed with the department and,that somehow or other, he has missed the rort …
Ms Carney: Who were the ministers, name them?
Ms MARTIN: … thenat the Auditor-General has it wrong.? That is something the Opposition Leader should take up with the Auditor-General. Yesterday, we had the Opposition Leader saying: ‘Tell us about the massive overpayments. Tell us about the massive underpayments’.
Ms Carney: Well, we will get an FOI request. We will use fFreedom of iInformation.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: I say to the Opposition Leader: the report came from the Auditor-General. I have been advised there is no evidence – and I include the then Opposition Leader in this – of dishonest conduct by ministers or by the Leader of the Opposition.
I will be formal about this. The calculation of the correct travel allowance entitlement is the responsibility of the staff in the relevant section of my department, the Department of the Chief Minister. Unfortunately, for a period of time, there were a number of administrative errors made,. tThat is what the Auditor-General has highlighted -– and I welcome the fact that he has highlighted that - including errors of calculation, use of outdated Remuneration Tribunal dDeterminations, and inadequate sourcing of documentation. He has said they are administrative errors.
Another important point to note is that, in the case of each individual affected, the nett result was underpayment, not overpayment. The word I used yesterday was that the ‘hysteria’ being adopted by the Opposition Leader is not supported by the Auditor-General in his report. It is not supported. I inform the House, as I indicated yesterday, in light of these administrative errors, highlighted …
Ms Carney: Clerical errors!
Madam SPEAKER: Order, Leader of the Opposition!
Ms MARTIN: It is interesting that the Opposition Leader says …
Ms Carney: What are you hiding? You say you are honest. Why do you not be honest?
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition, cease interjecting.
Ms MARTIN: It is the court of law again. The Opposition Leader is saying ‘clerical errors’ or ‘administrative errors’ as though she does not believe it. That is what the Auditor-General is clearly saying.
Ms Carney: These people might want more information.
Ms MARTIN: The Opposition Leader should raise it with the Auditor-General that he has obviously got it wrong and he does not understand his job. Opposition Leader, a challenge to you: go and tell the Auditor-General he is wrong!
Ms Carney: Do not be absurd! You have the information! Show it! What are you hiding?
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: Tell him he has misled parliament with his report – go on - having followed it through to your conclusions you are trying make. You are trying to imply that, somehow or other, the Auditor-General is not telling the truth about this.
Ms Carney: No.
Mr Mills: No, you are not – you are on the wrong track!
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: the Auditor-General has spelt it out. In light of these administrative errors, as described by the Auditor-General in his report to this parliament, the Chief Executive Officer of my department has ordered a complete review of all travel allowance payments for the period at issue. We have had a selection done by the Auditor-General, now we will have a complete review of those claims over the mid-2003-04 period, and up to the implementation of the revised arrangements which were put in place a couple of months ago in my department to ensure that there are no further incorrect payments.
He has also ordered a review of administrative processes relating to travel allowance, including the procedures that are followed, delegations and acquittals, to ensure that even basic things likesuch as the form that is filled in is reallyvery clear - there can be no misinterpretation by anyone, anywhere. I believe that is fair. We will make sure these administrative errors are going to be eliminated in the future.
My Chief Executive Officer will also be advising the Auditor-General of these additional steps taken, and provide the opportunity for any additional comments he may have to ensure that the highest level of administration is in this area.
As I have said, the Auditor-General has already investigated the issue thoroughly and has confirmed that it is a matter of administrative error. I say to the Opposition Leader, iIf the Leader of the Opposition she is saying that the Auditor-General has misled the parliament …
Members interjecting.
Ms CARNEY: A point of order, Madam Speaker! The Chief Minister should not mislead this House, nor should she attribute words to me that I did not utter.
Madam SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Chief Minister.
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I say again, the Auditor-General has been very clear: - administrative error. My department has taken the advice he has given very seriously. There have been changes put in place already, and we are reviewing the whole administrative process of those travel allowance claims in great detail. The Auditor-General will be informed of what happens through that review. I cannot see how we can be any more accountable.
ANSWER
Madam Speaker, we went through this yesterday. I repeat,: that the Auditor-General didpresented a report to this parliament, as he does twice a year. He identified what he has clearly said a number of times in his report and in the media that it is administrative errors we are dealing with.
In total, for ministers, including the member for Blain as the then Opposition Leader, as this was a random sample of claims between June 2003 and June 2004, there were some administrative errors. He was very clear about that. The nett result was underpayment.
There has been no evidence, and I believe the …
Ms Carney: Because you have not, no one else does!
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I ask the Opposition Leader, isif she is saying that the Auditor-General has misled this parliament?
Members interjecting.
Ms MARTIN: Is she saying that, when he says there have been administrative errors that he has talked aboutdiscussed with the department and,that somehow or other, he has missed the rort …
Ms Carney: Who were the ministers, name them?
Ms MARTIN: … thenat the Auditor-General has it wrong.? That is something the Opposition Leader should take up with the Auditor-General. Yesterday, we had the Opposition Leader saying: ‘Tell us about the massive overpayments. Tell us about the massive underpayments’.
Ms Carney: Well, we will get an FOI request. We will use fFreedom of iInformation.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: I say to the Opposition Leader: the report came from the Auditor-General. I have been advised there is no evidence – and I include the then Opposition Leader in this – of dishonest conduct by ministers or by the Leader of the Opposition.
I will be formal about this. The calculation of the correct travel allowance entitlement is the responsibility of the staff in the relevant section of my department, the Department of the Chief Minister. Unfortunately, for a period of time, there were a number of administrative errors made,. tThat is what the Auditor-General has highlighted -– and I welcome the fact that he has highlighted that - including errors of calculation, use of outdated Remuneration Tribunal dDeterminations, and inadequate sourcing of documentation. He has said they are administrative errors.
Another important point to note is that, in the case of each individual affected, the nett result was underpayment, not overpayment. The word I used yesterday was that the ‘hysteria’ being adopted by the Opposition Leader is not supported by the Auditor-General in his report. It is not supported. I inform the House, as I indicated yesterday, in light of these administrative errors, highlighted …
Ms Carney: Clerical errors!
Madam SPEAKER: Order, Leader of the Opposition!
Ms MARTIN: It is interesting that the Opposition Leader says …
Ms Carney: What are you hiding? You say you are honest. Why do you not be honest?
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition, cease interjecting.
Ms MARTIN: It is the court of law again. The Opposition Leader is saying ‘clerical errors’ or ‘administrative errors’ as though she does not believe it. That is what the Auditor-General is clearly saying.
Ms Carney: These people might want more information.
Ms MARTIN: The Opposition Leader should raise it with the Auditor-General that he has obviously got it wrong and he does not understand his job. Opposition Leader, a challenge to you: go and tell the Auditor-General he is wrong!
Ms Carney: Do not be absurd! You have the information! Show it! What are you hiding?
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: Tell him he has misled parliament with his report – go on - having followed it through to your conclusions you are trying make. You are trying to imply that, somehow or other, the Auditor-General is not telling the truth about this.
Ms Carney: No.
Mr Mills: No, you are not – you are on the wrong track!
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: the Auditor-General has spelt it out. In light of these administrative errors, as described by the Auditor-General in his report to this parliament, the Chief Executive Officer of my department has ordered a complete review of all travel allowance payments for the period at issue. We have had a selection done by the Auditor-General, now we will have a complete review of those claims over the mid-2003-04 period, and up to the implementation of the revised arrangements which were put in place a couple of months ago in my department to ensure that there are no further incorrect payments.
He has also ordered a review of administrative processes relating to travel allowance, including the procedures that are followed, delegations and acquittals, to ensure that even basic things likesuch as the form that is filled in is reallyvery clear - there can be no misinterpretation by anyone, anywhere. I believe that is fair. We will make sure these administrative errors are going to be eliminated in the future.
My Chief Executive Officer will also be advising the Auditor-General of these additional steps taken, and provide the opportunity for any additional comments he may have to ensure that the highest level of administration is in this area.
As I have said, the Auditor-General has already investigated the issue thoroughly and has confirmed that it is a matter of administrative error. I say to the Opposition Leader, iIf the Leader of the Opposition she is saying that the Auditor-General has misled the parliament …
Members interjecting.
Ms CARNEY: A point of order, Madam Speaker! The Chief Minister should not mislead this House, nor should she attribute words to me that I did not utter.
Madam SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Chief Minister.
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I say again, the Auditor-General has been very clear: - administrative error. My department has taken the advice he has given very seriously. There have been changes put in place already, and we are reviewing the whole administrative process of those travel allowance claims in great detail. The Auditor-General will be informed of what happens through that review. I cannot see how we can be any more accountable.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016