Mr BURKE - 2002-08-14
Last week, state and territory police ministers and the federal Minister for Justice and Customs, Senator Ellison, finally agreed on a set up for the Australian Crime Commission which will become a key player in the fight against organised serious crime right across Australia. It was a most significant meeting with far-reaching consequences in the area of law and order.
Why was the Territory represented at this meeting, not by you, not by another minister, not by the Commissioner of Police or his deputy, but by a political minder from your office, Mark Nelson, who has no expertise, experience nor authority in this vital area of law and order?
ANSWER
I thank the member for Brennan and Leader of the Opposition for his question. I am really proud to stand behind and with my state and territory police minister colleagues on this issue, because I think it is probably instructive to take the Leader of the Opposition through how quickly things turned around from the Police Ministerial Council that I chaired here some weeks ago and the difficulties we had then in the understanding between what the state and territory police ministers envisaged by way of an Australian Crime Commission compared with what the Commonwealth, through Senator Ellison, at that meeting, envisaged.
Senator Ellison came to …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: Madam Speaker, he is going to get this answer if it takes to 3.15.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: I am very patient. He has asked for an answer and I am going to give it to him. The longer they take, it suits me.
Senator Ellison laid down very briefly at the outset of that meeting - which we got to at about 3.05pm - and it was very clear to the state and territory police ministers that far from an enhanced National Crime Authority, which is what the whole process of this Australian Crime Commission was to be about, we were going to have a reduced and much smaller body, less effective in dealing with questions of national crime than indeed the National Crime Authority which itself has been subject to much criticism over its effectiveness.
Senator Ellison was apparently not going to be in a mood to listen to anything, the state and territory ministers sat on their own, without the good Minister for Justice, for about an hour, to form up, in a direct proposal, where they thought the Australian Crime Commission should be headed - the level of resourcing, the investigative capacity it should have and a whole range of questions behind that. Senator Ellison then came back in and was presented with the proposal from the state and territory ministers. He virtually said: ‘What do you expect me to do with this?’ He was asked to take those proposals to the Prime Minister. He gave an indication that the Prime Minister wouldn’t be the slightest bit interested in what the state and territory police ministers had put to him.
There was a remarkable turnaround in the space of a few weeks. The Commonwealth was asked to respond by the end of July, and we had this remarkable turnaround. I commend the efforts of one Michael Costa, the Minister for Police in New South Wales and his team, because it was remarkable, far from not listening, Prime Minister Howard took on the concerns of the states and territories in relation to the resourcing of the Australian Crime Commission. Through that process of discussion, consultation and negotiation through Michael Costa’s office in New South Wales directly with the Prime Minister, the Commonwealth went a very long way to seeing the concerns of the states and territories in terms of those resourcing questions and the ability of the Australian Crime Commission to do its job.
When he suggests that my Chief of Staff, Mark Nelson, has no expertise in this area, I hope he is not suggesting he thinks I am an absolute expert on these matters. I sat and chaired the meeting in Darwin which got me across many of the issues, because many of my state and territory colleagues are much more versed in these matters than am I. Nonetheless, Mr Nelson was there all of the way through that ministerial council with me. We both read all of the submissions, the details between the Commonwealth, the states and territories, and we had phone link ups at which Mr Nelson was present with the state and territory police ministers in advance of this further meeting. It was not …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: The question is it is unprecedented.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented that you would do that, any minister would do that.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: Why didn’t you send the Police Commissioner?
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented. You don’t send minders.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Leader of the Opposition, order! You have made your interjection.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney, as of last Friday, when I was at Docker River and Kintore visiting schools in the communities …
Ms Martin: Wasn’t that the first time an education minister …
Mr STIRLING: I think it was the first time. It is a long time since a police minister or education minister had been at Kintore, I can tell you. In fact, the people asked if I could remember a minister having been there myself.
Nonetheless, the meeting on Friday was a meeting of police ministers, not - I repeat, not - a ministerial council. Had it been a ministerial council and as I was unavailable to attend, it would have been appropriate to ask the Commissioner of Police to attend and represent the Northern Territory in my absence. It was not a ministerial council, it was a meeting of ministers. I was not the only minister who did not attend, and I understand other ministers who were not in attendance had their chiefs of staff, or people from their office connected with policing matters represent them.
So, far from being inappropriate as to who I sent or who I didn’t send, had it been a ministerial council, I would have spoken to the Commissioner of Police and had him attend. It was not a ministerial council; it was a meeting of ministers to finalise the position, the negotiations and the outcomes coming from the Prime Minister’s office, and a way through to put a line under it.
We had almost unanimous agreement in the end between the Commonwealth and each of the state and territory police ministers. That is the reason Mr Nelson attended. He reported fully back to me on that meeting, and I appreciate his efforts because, in the end, the states and territories have, on behalf of Australia, finished up with a model Australian Crime Commission that will take us into the future, unlike the proposal the Minister for Justice, Senator Ellison, was shoving on to us.
Why was the Territory represented at this meeting, not by you, not by another minister, not by the Commissioner of Police or his deputy, but by a political minder from your office, Mark Nelson, who has no expertise, experience nor authority in this vital area of law and order?
ANSWER
I thank the member for Brennan and Leader of the Opposition for his question. I am really proud to stand behind and with my state and territory police minister colleagues on this issue, because I think it is probably instructive to take the Leader of the Opposition through how quickly things turned around from the Police Ministerial Council that I chaired here some weeks ago and the difficulties we had then in the understanding between what the state and territory police ministers envisaged by way of an Australian Crime Commission compared with what the Commonwealth, through Senator Ellison, at that meeting, envisaged.
Senator Ellison came to …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: Madam Speaker, he is going to get this answer if it takes to 3.15.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: I am very patient. He has asked for an answer and I am going to give it to him. The longer they take, it suits me.
Senator Ellison laid down very briefly at the outset of that meeting - which we got to at about 3.05pm - and it was very clear to the state and territory police ministers that far from an enhanced National Crime Authority, which is what the whole process of this Australian Crime Commission was to be about, we were going to have a reduced and much smaller body, less effective in dealing with questions of national crime than indeed the National Crime Authority which itself has been subject to much criticism over its effectiveness.
Senator Ellison was apparently not going to be in a mood to listen to anything, the state and territory ministers sat on their own, without the good Minister for Justice, for about an hour, to form up, in a direct proposal, where they thought the Australian Crime Commission should be headed - the level of resourcing, the investigative capacity it should have and a whole range of questions behind that. Senator Ellison then came back in and was presented with the proposal from the state and territory ministers. He virtually said: ‘What do you expect me to do with this?’ He was asked to take those proposals to the Prime Minister. He gave an indication that the Prime Minister wouldn’t be the slightest bit interested in what the state and territory police ministers had put to him.
There was a remarkable turnaround in the space of a few weeks. The Commonwealth was asked to respond by the end of July, and we had this remarkable turnaround. I commend the efforts of one Michael Costa, the Minister for Police in New South Wales and his team, because it was remarkable, far from not listening, Prime Minister Howard took on the concerns of the states and territories in relation to the resourcing of the Australian Crime Commission. Through that process of discussion, consultation and negotiation through Michael Costa’s office in New South Wales directly with the Prime Minister, the Commonwealth went a very long way to seeing the concerns of the states and territories in terms of those resourcing questions and the ability of the Australian Crime Commission to do its job.
When he suggests that my Chief of Staff, Mark Nelson, has no expertise in this area, I hope he is not suggesting he thinks I am an absolute expert on these matters. I sat and chaired the meeting in Darwin which got me across many of the issues, because many of my state and territory colleagues are much more versed in these matters than am I. Nonetheless, Mr Nelson was there all of the way through that ministerial council with me. We both read all of the submissions, the details between the Commonwealth, the states and territories, and we had phone link ups at which Mr Nelson was present with the state and territory police ministers in advance of this further meeting. It was not …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: The question is it is unprecedented.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented that you would do that, any minister would do that.
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: Why didn’t you send the Police Commissioner?
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney …
Mr Burke: It is unprecedented. You don’t send minders.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Leader of the Opposition, order! You have made your interjection.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STIRLING: The meeting in Sydney, as of last Friday, when I was at Docker River and Kintore visiting schools in the communities …
Ms Martin: Wasn’t that the first time an education minister …
Mr STIRLING: I think it was the first time. It is a long time since a police minister or education minister had been at Kintore, I can tell you. In fact, the people asked if I could remember a minister having been there myself.
Nonetheless, the meeting on Friday was a meeting of police ministers, not - I repeat, not - a ministerial council. Had it been a ministerial council and as I was unavailable to attend, it would have been appropriate to ask the Commissioner of Police to attend and represent the Northern Territory in my absence. It was not a ministerial council, it was a meeting of ministers. I was not the only minister who did not attend, and I understand other ministers who were not in attendance had their chiefs of staff, or people from their office connected with policing matters represent them.
So, far from being inappropriate as to who I sent or who I didn’t send, had it been a ministerial council, I would have spoken to the Commissioner of Police and had him attend. It was not a ministerial council; it was a meeting of ministers to finalise the position, the negotiations and the outcomes coming from the Prime Minister’s office, and a way through to put a line under it.
We had almost unanimous agreement in the end between the Commonwealth and each of the state and territory police ministers. That is the reason Mr Nelson attended. He reported fully back to me on that meeting, and I appreciate his efforts because, in the end, the states and territories have, on behalf of Australia, finished up with a model Australian Crime Commission that will take us into the future, unlike the proposal the Minister for Justice, Senator Ellison, was shoving on to us.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016