Mrs BRAHAM - 1994-11-30
As the minister is aware, many of our Aboriginal communities across the Territory encounter difficulties in hiring skilled, adequate and experienced administrators. Can the minister advise what actions this government is taking to address this problem?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, the member is quite right that there are often great difficulties in recruiting adequately trained and qualified staff to carry out some of the very important financial and administrative tasks in remote communities, particularly in Aboriginal communities. I believe no member of this Chamber would think otherwise. For example, it is virtually impossible to recruit qualified town clerks for small Aboriginal communities. Secondly, it is particularly difficult to find people with the relevant levels of experience and administrative qualifications to carry out the task.
Our department provides financial assistance to the Local Government Association to assist with training elected members of councils, town clerks and administrative staff employed in local government communities. This aims, in particular, at improving the standards of those who are undertaking those tasks currently. We are working on a program with communities to actively encourage improved skills in those areas. Equally, we support work that seeks actively to encourage the recruitment of Aboriginal people in Aboriginal communities to perform these tasks. As much as anything else, that is part of a process of job-creation within communities. It also is self-management and self-determination to an extent.
Page 355
At the same time as attempting to address these issues and provide opportunities for people within communities, particularly in areas like community government and association councils, we need to recognise that a principal priority is to ensure that funds and resources provided for the benefit of a community are used as efficiently and effectively as possible for that purpose. When people do not have adequate experience or skills, it is easy for funds not to be so used. Unfortunately, we have seen far too many examples of councils getting into financial trouble through maladministration, sometimes because of impropriety or illegal actions but more often than not simply because of a lack of skills and inefficiencies in the use of funds.
Mr Stirling: And a lack of assistance from the OLG.
Mr HATTON: I totally dispute the allegation of a lack of assistance from the OLG.
Mr Stirling: There were no staff ...
Mr HATTON: I happen to think that the OLG is doing an exceptionally good job in the communities ...
Mr Stirling: It is now. It has staff now.
Mr HATTON: It is doing a particularly good job in the communities, and I resent the member for Nhulunbuy's allegation that our field staff and our support staff ...
Mr Stirling: At one time, all you had was a receptionist. What was she supposed to do?
Mr HATTON: ... are doing otherwise than an excellent job in supporting and working with communities in very difficult circumstances. If the member for Nhulunbuy spent rather more time moving around his electorate, talking to communities ...
Mr Stirling: I support what you are doing now that you have staff.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: He is now applauding what they are doing. That is good to hear. I hope that message gets back tostaff in the Office of Local Government so that they are aware that they are recognised as doing an excellent job in very difficult situations. The member for Nhulunbuy knows of some of the work that we are doing in an attempt to overcome very difficult situations.
There is a conflict between the desire to recruit locally and putting training in place. We are providing financial assistance through the Local Government Association's Industry Training Committee to make training facilities available, and we offer the services of our OLG staff to work with councils. We are actively encouraging them to recruit qualified people to positions in communities and also to place local people into positions where they can obtain the training and experience needed to take over those positions. I am very keen to ensure that we do not continue to set up Aboriginal people to fail in positions of high responsibility simply because they do not have the skills, the backup or the resources to
Page 356
enable them to carry out their tasks. It is a very sensitive and difficult issue to work through, including attempting to discuss what is needed with the communities, given all the talk about self-determination that one hears in communities. We suggest that they would be best served by placing qualified people in the key jobs whilst the people they are looking at placing in those positions are provided with training and on-the-job experience that will enable them to develop the skills needed to take over efficiently and effectively. Where that is happening, it is working well.
That task is not made any easier by local members who jump at the first shadow and decide to make a quick point. The Leader of the Opposition is looking at me because he knows that I am about to refer to a letter that he sent to me about the community of Amperlatwatye in his electorate. That letter was received in my office on 22 November. It is worth while to refer to the facts because they enunciate very clearly the difficulty and why it is very important to act carefully when working through these fairly difficult tasks. The letter reads:
I have been approached by some of my constituents in the Amperlatwatye community complaining about heavy-handed treatment from staff of your department.
The community, some months ago, appointed Tom Findlay as administrator and Nigel Morton Holmes as assistant administrator. On 2 September, as part of
its localisation policy of getting community members into positions of power within the community, the council decided to rejig the arrangement.
Mr Nigel Morton Holmes was appointed as administrator and Tom Findlay was retained as his adviser. This is a system of training which has long antecedents
and is often quite effective. The Education Department uses it in primary schools. I used it myself when working myself out of a job at the Central Australian
Aboriginal Congress Inc in Alice Springs some 12 to 14 years ago.
Reaction from the department was initially neutral. Last week, however, they were told that they had to sack the adviser, demote the administrator and hire a
replacement. Funds have been withheld and the community feels it is being blackmailed into submission. I request your urgent investigation and advice in this matter.
That is the letter which the Leader of the Opposition wrote so I guess that is the position as he was told it. In fact, the situation is very different and I would like to explain that. The Amperlatwatye community is the central body of the Aranga Association which consists of Amperlatwatye and 3 outstations approximately 320 km north-east of Alice Springs.
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! We have been able to ask 2 questions so far today because of ministers' long-winded answers that should have been ministerial statements. Initially, the minister spoke at great length answering the question repetitively. He is now introducing another subject and it looks as though he will continue for at least another 5 minutes. Mr Speaker, I ask you to request him to conclude his remarks or bring the matter on as a ministerial statement so that we can discuss the matter fully.
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Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order, but I ask the minister to contain his answer. There have been only 4 questions in almost 40 minutes, and I believe that is a little unreasonable. A number of members want to ask questions, and I ask the minister to conclude his answer as soon as possible.
Mr HATTON: I note that this is the only question which I have had today. I might believe the opposition ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: It is interesting that the Leader of the Opposition is very concerned to ensure that I do not explain the situation ...
Mr Ede interjecting.
Mr Bailey: Make a ministerial statement. Do not waste Question Time.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I ask members to allow the minister to conclude his answer.
Mr HATTON: In fact, the recruitment action carried out by the community resulted in the appointment of Mr Findlay as administrator and Mr Nigel Morton Holmes as adviser. I will explain their qualifications. Mr Findlay has experience as a shop manager in other remote communities and Mr Morton Holmes is a former resident of Amperlatwatye, with many family members there, and has some experience with CDEP at Ngukurr.
The department played no role in the recruitment, although offers were made to assist, and no opportunity was provided for the department to comment on the recruitment outcomes despite the outgoing administrator being fully aware that final appointment would need to be sanctioned by me in accordance with section 142 of the Local Government Act. Initially, the advice was that the 2 people would share the position equally.
Mr Ede: Has Amperlatwatye taken up community government yet?
Mr HATTON: No, it is moving towards it. It still requires my ...
Mr Ede: No, it does not need your approval, and you leave it there.
Mr HATTON: It explained that this was not a ...
Mr Ede: It does not need your approval.
Mr HATTON: Initially, the advice was that the 2 people would share the position equally. It was explained that this was not possible, that the community would need to determine who would hold the position of administrator and that the appointment required my concurrence. The community then advised that Mr Morton Holmes would be the administrator and Mr Findlay would act as adviser. Mr Morton Holmes's qualifications and experience were sought in order to present a recommendation to me for consideration
Page 358
of the appointment. That was not provided until 15 November. During that period, the department became concerned at what appeared to be the lack of knowledge and administrative ability of the new administration.
The field officer, Greg McFarland, visited the community on 16 November to discuss the matter. The visit was to ensure that Nigel Morton Holmes understood fully the requirements of the role of administrator and that this department has an obligation and commitment to ensure that the recruitment of key staff results in the employment of persons who will achieve outcomes for the community. The field officer reported that the meeting was open and frank, with the outcome that Mr Findlay admitted that he may not have the skills to be an adviser and Mr Morton Holmes agreed that he required more training. It was agreed that recruitment action to appoint a qualified administrator would be put in place and that Mr Morton Holmes would fill the role of adviser but, with more experience, eventually become the administrator. There was no suggestion that either person should leave the community or be sacked. It was intended also that, prior to any decisions being implemented, the matter would be discussed with the council and the community. It was stated clearly to both persons that their integrity and commitment were not in question. It was explained also that it is this department's preference for suitably qualified or experienced Aboriginal people to take leading roles as administrators.
Mr Stirling: Why don't you give us a statement? You are making a joke of Question Time - an absolute joke!
Mr HATTON: You may think it a joke, but the fact is that hundreds of thousands of dollars are being wasted in communities and departmental staff are attempting in the interests of the communities ...
Mr Stirling: Bring on a statement so that we can ...
Mr HATTON: ... to get the right people into jobs, to ensure that the interests of the communities are looked after, and to provide training for others who do not yet have the qualifications.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr HATTON: If you believe that is a joke, you are doing a disservice to your own electorate.
Mr Bailey: It is not an answer that is suitable in Question Time, Steve, and you know it.
Mr HATTON: That is very much why you are opposed to this question being asked. The fact is that our department is ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Page 359
Mr HATTON: ... attempting to ensure that there are people with the qualifications and skills. We do not need the Leader of the Opposition making allegations about sackings. Mr Speaker, the only reason why funding had not been passed on was that their financial reports had not been submitted. It had nothing to do with the administrator's position. The forms were available and had been explained to those people, but the forms had not been submitted to justify the equivalent of the first quarter's funding. It was a simple process that had nothing to do with the recruitment. The Leader of the Opposition may think that we should not worry about that but simply continue to pump out money without reports being submitted. Ask the member for Nhulunbuy about that kind of thing, and ask the member for MacDonnell about the problems at Amoonguna resulting from poor financial reporting. If we want to ensure that the money is spent for the community, we must ensure proper financial ...
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! Five minutes ago, you asked the minister to wind up his answer so that we could move on with Question Time. I ask you to reinforce that instruction to the minister because, obviously, he missed the point.
Mr SPEAKER: Once again, there is no point of order. However, once again, the answer is extremely long. Does the minister have anything further ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, I was about 10 seconds away from finishing.
Mr Ede: He has 3 more pages! I can see them.
Mr HATTON: I was not even referring to that.
The fact is that we will insist on financial accountability and press to obtain qualified people because our first priority must be to ensure that funds provided in the interests of the community are used for that purpose. We will provide support for people. I ask members opposite to be a little more careful about allegations they make in this House.
Page 360
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, the member is quite right that there are often great difficulties in recruiting adequately trained and qualified staff to carry out some of the very important financial and administrative tasks in remote communities, particularly in Aboriginal communities. I believe no member of this Chamber would think otherwise. For example, it is virtually impossible to recruit qualified town clerks for small Aboriginal communities. Secondly, it is particularly difficult to find people with the relevant levels of experience and administrative qualifications to carry out the task.
Our department provides financial assistance to the Local Government Association to assist with training elected members of councils, town clerks and administrative staff employed in local government communities. This aims, in particular, at improving the standards of those who are undertaking those tasks currently. We are working on a program with communities to actively encourage improved skills in those areas. Equally, we support work that seeks actively to encourage the recruitment of Aboriginal people in Aboriginal communities to perform these tasks. As much as anything else, that is part of a process of job-creation within communities. It also is self-management and self-determination to an extent.
Page 355
At the same time as attempting to address these issues and provide opportunities for people within communities, particularly in areas like community government and association councils, we need to recognise that a principal priority is to ensure that funds and resources provided for the benefit of a community are used as efficiently and effectively as possible for that purpose. When people do not have adequate experience or skills, it is easy for funds not to be so used. Unfortunately, we have seen far too many examples of councils getting into financial trouble through maladministration, sometimes because of impropriety or illegal actions but more often than not simply because of a lack of skills and inefficiencies in the use of funds.
Mr Stirling: And a lack of assistance from the OLG.
Mr HATTON: I totally dispute the allegation of a lack of assistance from the OLG.
Mr Stirling: There were no staff ...
Mr HATTON: I happen to think that the OLG is doing an exceptionally good job in the communities ...
Mr Stirling: It is now. It has staff now.
Mr HATTON: It is doing a particularly good job in the communities, and I resent the member for Nhulunbuy's allegation that our field staff and our support staff ...
Mr Stirling: At one time, all you had was a receptionist. What was she supposed to do?
Mr HATTON: ... are doing otherwise than an excellent job in supporting and working with communities in very difficult circumstances. If the member for Nhulunbuy spent rather more time moving around his electorate, talking to communities ...
Mr Stirling: I support what you are doing now that you have staff.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: He is now applauding what they are doing. That is good to hear. I hope that message gets back tostaff in the Office of Local Government so that they are aware that they are recognised as doing an excellent job in very difficult situations. The member for Nhulunbuy knows of some of the work that we are doing in an attempt to overcome very difficult situations.
There is a conflict between the desire to recruit locally and putting training in place. We are providing financial assistance through the Local Government Association's Industry Training Committee to make training facilities available, and we offer the services of our OLG staff to work with councils. We are actively encouraging them to recruit qualified people to positions in communities and also to place local people into positions where they can obtain the training and experience needed to take over those positions. I am very keen to ensure that we do not continue to set up Aboriginal people to fail in positions of high responsibility simply because they do not have the skills, the backup or the resources to
Page 356
enable them to carry out their tasks. It is a very sensitive and difficult issue to work through, including attempting to discuss what is needed with the communities, given all the talk about self-determination that one hears in communities. We suggest that they would be best served by placing qualified people in the key jobs whilst the people they are looking at placing in those positions are provided with training and on-the-job experience that will enable them to develop the skills needed to take over efficiently and effectively. Where that is happening, it is working well.
That task is not made any easier by local members who jump at the first shadow and decide to make a quick point. The Leader of the Opposition is looking at me because he knows that I am about to refer to a letter that he sent to me about the community of Amperlatwatye in his electorate. That letter was received in my office on 22 November. It is worth while to refer to the facts because they enunciate very clearly the difficulty and why it is very important to act carefully when working through these fairly difficult tasks. The letter reads:
I have been approached by some of my constituents in the Amperlatwatye community complaining about heavy-handed treatment from staff of your department.
The community, some months ago, appointed Tom Findlay as administrator and Nigel Morton Holmes as assistant administrator. On 2 September, as part of
its localisation policy of getting community members into positions of power within the community, the council decided to rejig the arrangement.
Mr Nigel Morton Holmes was appointed as administrator and Tom Findlay was retained as his adviser. This is a system of training which has long antecedents
and is often quite effective. The Education Department uses it in primary schools. I used it myself when working myself out of a job at the Central Australian
Aboriginal Congress Inc in Alice Springs some 12 to 14 years ago.
Reaction from the department was initially neutral. Last week, however, they were told that they had to sack the adviser, demote the administrator and hire a
replacement. Funds have been withheld and the community feels it is being blackmailed into submission. I request your urgent investigation and advice in this matter.
That is the letter which the Leader of the Opposition wrote so I guess that is the position as he was told it. In fact, the situation is very different and I would like to explain that. The Amperlatwatye community is the central body of the Aranga Association which consists of Amperlatwatye and 3 outstations approximately 320 km north-east of Alice Springs.
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! We have been able to ask 2 questions so far today because of ministers' long-winded answers that should have been ministerial statements. Initially, the minister spoke at great length answering the question repetitively. He is now introducing another subject and it looks as though he will continue for at least another 5 minutes. Mr Speaker, I ask you to request him to conclude his remarks or bring the matter on as a ministerial statement so that we can discuss the matter fully.
Page 357
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order, but I ask the minister to contain his answer. There have been only 4 questions in almost 40 minutes, and I believe that is a little unreasonable. A number of members want to ask questions, and I ask the minister to conclude his answer as soon as possible.
Mr HATTON: I note that this is the only question which I have had today. I might believe the opposition ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: It is interesting that the Leader of the Opposition is very concerned to ensure that I do not explain the situation ...
Mr Ede interjecting.
Mr Bailey: Make a ministerial statement. Do not waste Question Time.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I ask members to allow the minister to conclude his answer.
Mr HATTON: In fact, the recruitment action carried out by the community resulted in the appointment of Mr Findlay as administrator and Mr Nigel Morton Holmes as adviser. I will explain their qualifications. Mr Findlay has experience as a shop manager in other remote communities and Mr Morton Holmes is a former resident of Amperlatwatye, with many family members there, and has some experience with CDEP at Ngukurr.
The department played no role in the recruitment, although offers were made to assist, and no opportunity was provided for the department to comment on the recruitment outcomes despite the outgoing administrator being fully aware that final appointment would need to be sanctioned by me in accordance with section 142 of the Local Government Act. Initially, the advice was that the 2 people would share the position equally.
Mr Ede: Has Amperlatwatye taken up community government yet?
Mr HATTON: No, it is moving towards it. It still requires my ...
Mr Ede: No, it does not need your approval, and you leave it there.
Mr HATTON: It explained that this was not a ...
Mr Ede: It does not need your approval.
Mr HATTON: Initially, the advice was that the 2 people would share the position equally. It was explained that this was not possible, that the community would need to determine who would hold the position of administrator and that the appointment required my concurrence. The community then advised that Mr Morton Holmes would be the administrator and Mr Findlay would act as adviser. Mr Morton Holmes's qualifications and experience were sought in order to present a recommendation to me for consideration
Page 358
of the appointment. That was not provided until 15 November. During that period, the department became concerned at what appeared to be the lack of knowledge and administrative ability of the new administration.
The field officer, Greg McFarland, visited the community on 16 November to discuss the matter. The visit was to ensure that Nigel Morton Holmes understood fully the requirements of the role of administrator and that this department has an obligation and commitment to ensure that the recruitment of key staff results in the employment of persons who will achieve outcomes for the community. The field officer reported that the meeting was open and frank, with the outcome that Mr Findlay admitted that he may not have the skills to be an adviser and Mr Morton Holmes agreed that he required more training. It was agreed that recruitment action to appoint a qualified administrator would be put in place and that Mr Morton Holmes would fill the role of adviser but, with more experience, eventually become the administrator. There was no suggestion that either person should leave the community or be sacked. It was intended also that, prior to any decisions being implemented, the matter would be discussed with the council and the community. It was stated clearly to both persons that their integrity and commitment were not in question. It was explained also that it is this department's preference for suitably qualified or experienced Aboriginal people to take leading roles as administrators.
Mr Stirling: Why don't you give us a statement? You are making a joke of Question Time - an absolute joke!
Mr HATTON: You may think it a joke, but the fact is that hundreds of thousands of dollars are being wasted in communities and departmental staff are attempting in the interests of the communities ...
Mr Stirling: Bring on a statement so that we can ...
Mr HATTON: ... to get the right people into jobs, to ensure that the interests of the communities are looked after, and to provide training for others who do not yet have the qualifications.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr HATTON: If you believe that is a joke, you are doing a disservice to your own electorate.
Mr Bailey: It is not an answer that is suitable in Question Time, Steve, and you know it.
Mr HATTON: That is very much why you are opposed to this question being asked. The fact is that our department is ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Page 359
Mr HATTON: ... attempting to ensure that there are people with the qualifications and skills. We do not need the Leader of the Opposition making allegations about sackings. Mr Speaker, the only reason why funding had not been passed on was that their financial reports had not been submitted. It had nothing to do with the administrator's position. The forms were available and had been explained to those people, but the forms had not been submitted to justify the equivalent of the first quarter's funding. It was a simple process that had nothing to do with the recruitment. The Leader of the Opposition may think that we should not worry about that but simply continue to pump out money without reports being submitted. Ask the member for Nhulunbuy about that kind of thing, and ask the member for MacDonnell about the problems at Amoonguna resulting from poor financial reporting. If we want to ensure that the money is spent for the community, we must ensure proper financial ...
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! Five minutes ago, you asked the minister to wind up his answer so that we could move on with Question Time. I ask you to reinforce that instruction to the minister because, obviously, he missed the point.
Mr SPEAKER: Once again, there is no point of order. However, once again, the answer is extremely long. Does the minister have anything further ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, I was about 10 seconds away from finishing.
Mr Ede: He has 3 more pages! I can see them.
Mr HATTON: I was not even referring to that.
The fact is that we will insist on financial accountability and press to obtain qualified people because our first priority must be to ensure that funds provided in the interests of the community are used for that purpose. We will provide support for people. I ask members opposite to be a little more careful about allegations they make in this House.
Page 360
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016