Mrs HICKEY - 1996-05-14
I refer to questions asked already of the Attorney-General by the member for MacDonnell. In response to questions from this side of the House in the past, the Chief Minister has said that the people he is out to get are those people opposed to the government's line. He said ...
Mr Stone: Who said that?
Mrs HICKEY: It is in Hansard for 30 November 1995, that the people the Country Liberal Party are after are those people who disagree with his view of the Territory. You can check it out in the Parliamentary Record.
Is it a fact that 7 ministers have benefited from this government's system of silencing dissent against the Country Liberal Party? Will the Chief Minister tell the House whether it is his intention to continue to use the device, outlined by the member for MacDonnell in his earlier questions, as a means of stifling debate in the Northern Territory?
Mr Stone: What page of the Parliamentary Record is that at?
Mrs HICKEY: You can check that out.
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ANSWER
Mr Speaker, this is the new Leader of the Opposition's first day in that role. It is, 'No more Mrs Nice Guy - I'm going to go in there and serve it up to them'.
Mrs Hickey: Answer the question!
Mr STONE: That is it, isn't it? You ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Members of the opposition are going a little too far with their interjections. They are refusing to observe my calls for order. I warn both the member for Nhulunbuy and the member for Wanguri that the next time I will name them.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I gather that this is a continuation of the assertion by the opposition that a minister who goes about his lawful duty as a minister of the Crown, and who is maligned and denigrated by people who feel they can do it with complete impunity, should just cop it on the chin and simply put up with people, particularly members opposite, being able to say the most scurrilous, disgraceful, disgusting and unfactual things imaginable. We are
still ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri is on very shaky ground.
Mr STONE: We are still waiting for the member for MacDonnell to apologise to the member for Sanderson for the disgraceful and disgusting allegations that he made, and that were proven to be untrue.
Mr Bell: You were not even in here.
Mr STONE: So, it is true? You did it.
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: And you believed, as did others ...
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: You can say and do whatever you like, but the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Opposition was shown when her pin-up girl from Perth got herself into strife in Canberra. We heard not a word then about the massive sums that were committed by both the Western
Page 1335
Australian government and the federal government to provide Carmen Lawrence's legal aid. We did not hear a word about that.
You are not even consistent. You come in here and try to dress it up as though somehow the minister has had his hand in the till, simply because he has sought to defend his reputation against unfounded, scurrilous lies. A minister of the Crown ...
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: It is the truth.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! When the Chief Minister is in full flight on radio in Question Time, he still has to respect standing orders. If he wants to raise a debate about 'lies', he is most welcome to do so, but he knows that he has to do it by way of a substantive motion.
Mr SPEAKER: In this instance, where the Chief Minister believes the information that has been provided by yourself to be untrue, I must find that it is not unreasonable for him to assert that.
Members interjecting.
Mr Coulter: He did not actually say that the member for MacDonnell was lying. He used the words 'scurrilous lies' in a general sense.
Mr Ede: No. He said it was all of us on this side.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, It does not end with politicians and members of this Chamber who hold a commission of the Crown. Members opposite know that we also indemnify public servants whose reputations are savagely attacked and diminished by those who would make cruel and unsubstantiated allegations.
Mr Reed: One of whom now works for her.
Mr STONE: As the Deputy Chief Minister interjects, it includes the principal adviser to the Leader of the Opposition. She may have a bewildered look on her face, but that was against the then president of the CLP. Thus, we had a CLP government funding a Labor official because he had been maligned while acting in his capacity as a public servant.
Let me say to the Leader of the Opposition that we will continue to defend and stand up for people whose reputations are cruelly and maliciously damaged by people who do not care and who believe that, in the protection of this Chamber or outside of it, they can say what they will. They cause enormous hurt, not only to the ministers and public servants concerned but also to their families. I do not believe that the member for MacDonnell realises to this day the deep hurt that he caused the Manzie family. He did not offer a single word of apology when he was demonstrated to be wrong. That family lived with that for months. Why should the
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minister have simply to cop it on the chin and roll with the punches? I say to members opposite, be careful before you speak out.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr Stirling: Threats!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Nhulunbuy is fully aware of the previous statement I made about members continuing to speak over the top of me when I call for order. I will not name him on this occasion, but I will certainly do so on the next.
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The Chief Minister has very clearly breached privilege. He stood here and made threats against members on this side of the House in the performance of our public duty. I ask that, at the very least, you warn him to desist from that line. He knows that the angle that he is putting in answering this question, that he can use every last dollar of the government's money in an attempt to silence people on this side, is insupportable. However, he cannot compound that by standing up and breaching privilege by threatening us in this House in that way.
Mr SPEAKER: I must say that I missed the comment. However, I advise the Chief Minister that he should not use threatening language.
Mr STONE: Let me be very clear about it. Both within this Chamber and outside of it, there is room for vigorous debate on the facts ...
Mr STIRLING: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I believe the threat issued by the Chief Minister has to be withdrawn.
Mr SPEAKER: Can you tell me what the threat was?
Mr STIRLING: He said: 'You look out, you blokes over there'. It was an outright threat that there would be more legal writs. That imposes a restriction on our ability to do our job as members of this Assembly and in representing our constituents. It is a prima facie breach of privilege and I want it withdrawn.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! If the Chief Minister is prepared to advise me of what he said, I will take it on board.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I am happy to look at Hansard, but there was no intention to threaten or intimidate. In fact, if the member had not risen to his feet, he would have afforded me the opportunity to make it very clear. I will continue.
I want to make it very clear that there is room for vigorous debate, both within this Chamber and outside of it, but there is no room for people who tell lies, who try to damage people's reputations ...
Page 1337
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I will not put up with that. If the Chief Minister wants to imply that I have been telling lies, he should have the courage to do 2 things. First, he should move a substantive motion under standing order 62, and not take up time in Question Time. Secondly, if he believes that I have consciously told lies in this parliament about any matter whatsoever, he should make his own ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri will resume his seat.
Mr BELL: The second thing he should do is to move, under standing order 83, to have that matter referred to the Committee of Privileges. If he is not prepared to do either of those things, Mr Speaker, you are bound under standing orders to direct him to withdraw and to have his last comments expunged from Hansard.
Mr SPEAKER: I will decide those matters. There are 2 matters here and I will deal with them as they arose. In the first instance, I was unaware of what the Chief Minister had said. I have conflicting advice on what the Chief Minister said. I am prepared to look at that as soon as I have access to the Hansard, and I will make a decision on that matter. With regard to the second matter, there is no point of order. The Chief Minister did not refer to any individual. He said that, if a member comes in here and tells lies, he would take action.
Mr BAILEY: Speaking to the point of order ...
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. I have ruled on both matters. The member for Wanguri will resume his seat.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, people who hold a commission under the Crown and our public servants have every entitlement to believe that their reputations will be defended and protected from those who maliciously set out to damage their reputations and tell lies about them. I want to make that very clear.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The question that was asked by the Leader of the Opposition made reference to my contributions in debate here. The Chief Minister has continued clearly to imply that I have maliciously and knowingly told falsehoods about members of the government. If you are not prepared to bring him into line, I will move dissent from your ruling. He must desist from using those terms in this context.
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri is again on very shaky ground. I advise him not to continue on this line.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, speaking to the point of order, I believe the crucial point is that only a very limited number of defamation cases are being funded by the government. The Chief Minister has just said that he will fund only those actions where someone has deliberately lied or gone out and done certain things. By doing that, he is specifically breaching standing orders by including the member for MacDonnell. He says that it is a generalisation and it does
Page 1338
not include the member for MacDonnell. However, there are only 2 or 3 actions on foot at the moment. The only ground on which the government has agreed to fund those actions is if someone has deliberately lied. By saying that, he is implying that the member for MacDonnell has deliberately lied, and he cannot do that.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, speaking to the point of order, surely the Chief Minister is able to establish a principle by a generalised statement of circumstances under which, in the public interest, the government would be prepared to fund particular cases. The member for MacDonnell is expressing extreme sensitivity on this. I suspect that his words are prompted by a guilty conscience rather than by logic.
Mr SPEAKER: For the sake of the orderly conduct of the House, I ask the Chief Minister to be less provocative in the words that he uses. I believe that there is an opportunity for robust debate in this regard. If a member believes that he has been maligned or that a member has been untruthful in the statements that he or she has brought to this House, surely that member has the capacity to say that in this House. I do not believe there is a point of order, but I ask the Chief Minister to be less provocative in his words from now on.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I think I have been very clear in outlining government policy on these matters.
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Mr Stone: Who said that?
Mrs HICKEY: It is in Hansard for 30 November 1995, that the people the Country Liberal Party are after are those people who disagree with his view of the Territory. You can check it out in the Parliamentary Record.
Is it a fact that 7 ministers have benefited from this government's system of silencing dissent against the Country Liberal Party? Will the Chief Minister tell the House whether it is his intention to continue to use the device, outlined by the member for MacDonnell in his earlier questions, as a means of stifling debate in the Northern Territory?
Mr Stone: What page of the Parliamentary Record is that at?
Mrs HICKEY: You can check that out.
Page 1334
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, this is the new Leader of the Opposition's first day in that role. It is, 'No more Mrs Nice Guy - I'm going to go in there and serve it up to them'.
Mrs Hickey: Answer the question!
Mr STONE: That is it, isn't it? You ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Members of the opposition are going a little too far with their interjections. They are refusing to observe my calls for order. I warn both the member for Nhulunbuy and the member for Wanguri that the next time I will name them.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I gather that this is a continuation of the assertion by the opposition that a minister who goes about his lawful duty as a minister of the Crown, and who is maligned and denigrated by people who feel they can do it with complete impunity, should just cop it on the chin and simply put up with people, particularly members opposite, being able to say the most scurrilous, disgraceful, disgusting and unfactual things imaginable. We are
still ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri is on very shaky ground.
Mr STONE: We are still waiting for the member for MacDonnell to apologise to the member for Sanderson for the disgraceful and disgusting allegations that he made, and that were proven to be untrue.
Mr Bell: You were not even in here.
Mr STONE: So, it is true? You did it.
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: And you believed, as did others ...
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: You can say and do whatever you like, but the hypocrisy of the Leader of the Opposition was shown when her pin-up girl from Perth got herself into strife in Canberra. We heard not a word then about the massive sums that were committed by both the Western
Page 1335
Australian government and the federal government to provide Carmen Lawrence's legal aid. We did not hear a word about that.
You are not even consistent. You come in here and try to dress it up as though somehow the minister has had his hand in the till, simply because he has sought to defend his reputation against unfounded, scurrilous lies. A minister of the Crown ...
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: It is the truth.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! When the Chief Minister is in full flight on radio in Question Time, he still has to respect standing orders. If he wants to raise a debate about 'lies', he is most welcome to do so, but he knows that he has to do it by way of a substantive motion.
Mr SPEAKER: In this instance, where the Chief Minister believes the information that has been provided by yourself to be untrue, I must find that it is not unreasonable for him to assert that.
Members interjecting.
Mr Coulter: He did not actually say that the member for MacDonnell was lying. He used the words 'scurrilous lies' in a general sense.
Mr Ede: No. He said it was all of us on this side.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, It does not end with politicians and members of this Chamber who hold a commission of the Crown. Members opposite know that we also indemnify public servants whose reputations are savagely attacked and diminished by those who would make cruel and unsubstantiated allegations.
Mr Reed: One of whom now works for her.
Mr STONE: As the Deputy Chief Minister interjects, it includes the principal adviser to the Leader of the Opposition. She may have a bewildered look on her face, but that was against the then president of the CLP. Thus, we had a CLP government funding a Labor official because he had been maligned while acting in his capacity as a public servant.
Let me say to the Leader of the Opposition that we will continue to defend and stand up for people whose reputations are cruelly and maliciously damaged by people who do not care and who believe that, in the protection of this Chamber or outside of it, they can say what they will. They cause enormous hurt, not only to the ministers and public servants concerned but also to their families. I do not believe that the member for MacDonnell realises to this day the deep hurt that he caused the Manzie family. He did not offer a single word of apology when he was demonstrated to be wrong. That family lived with that for months. Why should the
Page 1336
minister have simply to cop it on the chin and roll with the punches? I say to members opposite, be careful before you speak out.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr Stirling: Threats!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Nhulunbuy is fully aware of the previous statement I made about members continuing to speak over the top of me when I call for order. I will not name him on this occasion, but I will certainly do so on the next.
Mr EDE: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The Chief Minister has very clearly breached privilege. He stood here and made threats against members on this side of the House in the performance of our public duty. I ask that, at the very least, you warn him to desist from that line. He knows that the angle that he is putting in answering this question, that he can use every last dollar of the government's money in an attempt to silence people on this side, is insupportable. However, he cannot compound that by standing up and breaching privilege by threatening us in this House in that way.
Mr SPEAKER: I must say that I missed the comment. However, I advise the Chief Minister that he should not use threatening language.
Mr STONE: Let me be very clear about it. Both within this Chamber and outside of it, there is room for vigorous debate on the facts ...
Mr STIRLING: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I believe the threat issued by the Chief Minister has to be withdrawn.
Mr SPEAKER: Can you tell me what the threat was?
Mr STIRLING: He said: 'You look out, you blokes over there'. It was an outright threat that there would be more legal writs. That imposes a restriction on our ability to do our job as members of this Assembly and in representing our constituents. It is a prima facie breach of privilege and I want it withdrawn.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! If the Chief Minister is prepared to advise me of what he said, I will take it on board.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I am happy to look at Hansard, but there was no intention to threaten or intimidate. In fact, if the member had not risen to his feet, he would have afforded me the opportunity to make it very clear. I will continue.
I want to make it very clear that there is room for vigorous debate, both within this Chamber and outside of it, but there is no room for people who tell lies, who try to damage people's reputations ...
Page 1337
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I will not put up with that. If the Chief Minister wants to imply that I have been telling lies, he should have the courage to do 2 things. First, he should move a substantive motion under standing order 62, and not take up time in Question Time. Secondly, if he believes that I have consciously told lies in this parliament about any matter whatsoever, he should make his own ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri will resume his seat.
Mr BELL: The second thing he should do is to move, under standing order 83, to have that matter referred to the Committee of Privileges. If he is not prepared to do either of those things, Mr Speaker, you are bound under standing orders to direct him to withdraw and to have his last comments expunged from Hansard.
Mr SPEAKER: I will decide those matters. There are 2 matters here and I will deal with them as they arose. In the first instance, I was unaware of what the Chief Minister had said. I have conflicting advice on what the Chief Minister said. I am prepared to look at that as soon as I have access to the Hansard, and I will make a decision on that matter. With regard to the second matter, there is no point of order. The Chief Minister did not refer to any individual. He said that, if a member comes in here and tells lies, he would take action.
Mr BAILEY: Speaking to the point of order ...
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. I have ruled on both matters. The member for Wanguri will resume his seat.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, people who hold a commission under the Crown and our public servants have every entitlement to believe that their reputations will be defended and protected from those who maliciously set out to damage their reputations and tell lies about them. I want to make that very clear.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The question that was asked by the Leader of the Opposition made reference to my contributions in debate here. The Chief Minister has continued clearly to imply that I have maliciously and knowingly told falsehoods about members of the government. If you are not prepared to bring him into line, I will move dissent from your ruling. He must desist from using those terms in this context.
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Wanguri is again on very shaky ground. I advise him not to continue on this line.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, speaking to the point of order, I believe the crucial point is that only a very limited number of defamation cases are being funded by the government. The Chief Minister has just said that he will fund only those actions where someone has deliberately lied or gone out and done certain things. By doing that, he is specifically breaching standing orders by including the member for MacDonnell. He says that it is a generalisation and it does
Page 1338
not include the member for MacDonnell. However, there are only 2 or 3 actions on foot at the moment. The only ground on which the government has agreed to fund those actions is if someone has deliberately lied. By saying that, he is implying that the member for MacDonnell has deliberately lied, and he cannot do that.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, speaking to the point of order, surely the Chief Minister is able to establish a principle by a generalised statement of circumstances under which, in the public interest, the government would be prepared to fund particular cases. The member for MacDonnell is expressing extreme sensitivity on this. I suspect that his words are prompted by a guilty conscience rather than by logic.
Mr SPEAKER: For the sake of the orderly conduct of the House, I ask the Chief Minister to be less provocative in the words that he uses. I believe that there is an opportunity for robust debate in this regard. If a member believes that he has been maligned or that a member has been untruthful in the statements that he or she has brought to this House, surely that member has the capacity to say that in this House. I do not believe there is a point of order, but I ask the Chief Minister to be less provocative in his words from now on.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I think I have been very clear in outlining government policy on these matters.
Page 1339
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016