Ms HENDERSON - 2006-11-30
Mr HENDERSON: A point of order, Madam Speaker! I seek a point of clarification here and a point of order. The Leader of the Opposition tabled a document in this House which she purported to be a leaked document which is a compilation of police figures across the Northern Territory.
The process in this House is that document is tabled. It goes to the Tabled Papers Office and is signed by the Clerk. I have a copy of the document that was tabled by the Leader of the Opposition, signed by the Clerk – so unless the Clerk is somehow part of this conspiracy – which states ‘copy of leaked document’.
The Leader of the Opposition is on the public record, on the Hansard, stating that she did not table …
Ms Carney: I can assist, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … that she did not table a document that stated ‘copy of a leaked document’.
So that we can have a Question Time where we are focused on substantive debate, the Leader of the Opposition can come clean and acknowledge that she has not tabled a leaked document, this is a copy of a leaked document …
Ms Carney: Here it is. Same document.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … which I challenge her to produce the document that it has been leaked from. I believe that this is a dodgy fabrication and compilation of figures that have been doctored up in the Leader of the Opposition’s office. She needs to table …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … she needs to table the original document that this comes from and acknowledge that the document she tabled in this House is one that was signed by the Clerk, which I tabled …
Ms Carney: You are so twitchy about this document. You hate this document.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … stating ‘copy of leaked document’. She is on the public record saying she did not table it …
Ms Carney: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: She did, and she needs to now produce the original document that this comes from. My assertion is that there is no document. It is a dodgy compilation of figures that comes from her office, Madam Speaker.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Order! Please resume your seat, Leader of the Opposition. I have not seen a copy of this. I would like to receive a copy. Leader of the Opposition, do you have a copy of exactly what you tabled?
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, yes, well …
Madam SPEAKER: Do you have a copy of exactly what you tabled, Leader of the Opposition? Leader of the Opposition, yes or no?
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, I have two copies …
Madam SPEAKER: Yes or no, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: The one that …
Madam SPEAKER: Yes or no, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: Sorry, well, the one that was tabled, I do not have the original back from the staff …
Madam SPEAKER: Do you have an exact copy of what you tabled, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Could you please table it now?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker. May I clarify a matter …
Madam SPEAKER: No. Could you please - Leader of the Opposition could you please table it now. I would like to receive a copy of that immediately. I shall examine the documents and then I will ask you some questions and allow you to speak. I would like to look at that document.
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, I can clarify it now …
Madam SPEAKER: I would like to look at that document first. Please resume your seat. I will wait for a Table Office staff to bring me a copy of the document.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Honourable members, order!
Leader of the Opposition, I have in front of me two documents which appear to be identical and which say ‘copy of leaked document’. Is this correct? You have tabled a document which says ‘copy of leaked document’, despite the fact that you said before that you did not say that.
Ms CARNEY: Yes, and I am keen to …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, government members!
Leader of the Opposition, you tabled a document. You have repeatedly claimed to the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services that you did not table a document that said ‘copy of leaked document’. Yet, you have just given me a copy of the document and I have another copy of the original document. Can you explain this?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker. I am very keen to explain it, thank you. The document that was tabled was tabled accidentally. We all make honest mistakes in this parliament and …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, order! Deputy Chief Minister, cease interjecting. I wish to hear what the Leader of the Opposition has to say. This is a very serious matter.
Ms CARNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had two bundles, one of which my staff had given to me. This is a copy of the original document, identical in every respect except ‘copy of leaked document’ on it. I would like to table it. Its content is identical and I apologise for my inadvertent mistake.
Madam SPEAKER: This is supposedly the original document?
Ms CARNEY: It is a copy of the original document, Madam Speaker, a copy to protect the source, which, of course, is required under the administration of this government and not uncommon, in fact regular practice in this House.
Madam SPEAKER: Please table the document. Before we continue, Mr Clerk, I seek your advice.
While it is clear that the Leader of the Opposition has in fact misled the House, she has apologised and explained herself. However, I would like you, Leader of the Opposition, to apologise to the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services who, in good faith, believed that this was a different document.
Ms CARNEY: I am happy to do so, Madam Speaker. Please accept my apology. The content of the document is, as you know, the same.
Mr HENDERSON: Madam Speaker, I have a further point of order. In regards to whichever document we are talking about, either the one that does not have ‘copy of leaked document’ or the one that does have ‘copy of leaked document’, this goes to a matter of substance.
The Leader of the Opposition is asserting that this document has some sort of authority or validity in order to pursue this line of questioning. There are formal documents tabled by the Police Commissioner every year in Estimates hearings, in the annual report, which actually state the numbers of police and where they are stationed across the Northern Territory. They are figures and documents on the public record.
I assert that this is nothing but a fabrication. The challenge for the Leader of the Opposition, and I assert that it has been fabricated in her office …
Ms Carney: Madam Speaker, that is offensive and outrageous.
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat!
Mr HENDERSON: The challenge for the Leader of the Opposition is to actually provide the original document. This looks like a pretty official - I have seen enough police documents in my time, Madam Speaker - to produce the original document that this came from so we can see whether the document has any validity at all. I believe that this is a fabrication and it is certainly defined as that, with ‘copy of leaked document’ on it. What is the original? Where is the source coming from? What authority? All of the relevant facts are on the public record.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, if I can speak to the point of order. Under my leadership, we intend to protect sources who give us material; to do otherwise would be bizarre and offensive. That is a document upon which we rely to show how dishonest this government has been with the police numbers.
Mr Henderson: You fabricated it.
Ms CARNEY: It is for the minister for Police, not the Leader of Government Business, to stand up. He has not actually discounted the contents of the documents. If he says it is untrue, then he can simply say so on the Parliamentary Record. He can spare the messenger as it were, and we will take the appropriate action, both in and outside the Chamber.
Mr Stirling: You have already lied once. Show us the original.
Madam SPEAKER: Deputy Chief Minister, I have asked you to withdraw.
Mr STIRLING: I withdraw, Madam Speaker, but the Leader of the Opposition has been sprung putting fraudulent documents before the House.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, order!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I want to make a quick point. There is a long tradition in this House that it is not acceptable to recast a document and then give it status. You have to be able to prove the original documentation. There have been previous times in the House where documentation, exactly as the Leader of the Opposition has done, has been rejected because it does not have credibility.
Ms Carney: He can deny it. He has not denied it. You do not know anything about it.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, unless we work from the original documentation, how do we know what is recast and what its status is? It is a very important fact that we deal with original documentation here, not something that the Opposition Leader’s staff have created on the fourth floor.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! I would appreciate a bit of silence while we try to sort this out.
Honourable members, I have three documents in front of me, two of which say ‘copy of a leaked document’, and one which appears to be identical to the copy of the leaked document which the Leader of the Opposition says has been leaked to her by some source within the police.
Leader of the Opposition, without giving the name of the source, I would like you to give some explanation of how this document has come into your hands so that we can attest as to whether it is a real document.
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, the opposition regularly receives, just like Labor did when they were in opposition, documents from, essentially, public servants. They tend to be the ones who provide documents to the opposition. The original of this document, with an identifiable source on it, was provided to my office. In order to protect the source, which is nothing new, we have all done it, oppositions do it, everyone tables letters and they remove the identifiable source, as we should do because it is the right thing to do.
It was provided to us by a member of the police force. We were advised that it was an internal police document. The minister, and the former minister, both know that it is.
Madam SPEAKER: In my role as the Speaker, I am probably unable to do much more than hear from the Leader of the Opposition. I will allow further questions. Bear in mind, Leader of the Opposition, that it is clear that the government does not believe that this is a genuine document. It is not actually my role as the Speaker to determine, at this stage, whether it is a genuine document. It is certainly identical to the copy of the leaked document which is here, as it has been tabled twice. I am quite concerned about the validity of the document …
Ms Carney: An honest mistake, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: On advice, it is not my role, as the Speaker, to make that particular decision. Yes, Leader of the Government Business?
Mr HENDERSON: A point of order, Madam Speaker! This is supposed to be a House of truth and fact. The Leader of the Opposition has form. On the last General Business Day, she tabled - and we thought we were debating - a code of conduct that the Solicitor-General of the Northern Territory had provided advice to us was actually illegal. Then, whilst we were debating that particular document which she had originally tabled …
Ms CARNEY: A point of order, Madam Speaker!
Madam SPEAKER: No, Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat.
Mr HENDERSON: … she slipped something else on the table. The Leader of the Opposition has a history, a developing a history, of fabricating documents …
Ms Carney: You do not want the truth because you cannot keep your promise.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … and putting them into this Chamber as substantive fact in debate. The government cannot take questions on this document seriously because there is no source. There is no evidentiary fact as to the numbers in it. It is purely a fabrication from the Leader of the Opposition’s office …
Ms Carney: Well, the police officer is going to be very upset to hear what you have to say, sport.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … that she is developing a history. Territorians cannot trust her.
Madam SPEAKER: Thank you, Leader of Government Business. Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat. I would like to ask a question of the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services. Do you have a copy of a document which might have similar figures?
Dr BURNS: You mean the handwritten one that says ‘from a police source’? Is that the one, Madam Speaker?
Madam SPEAKER: No, no minister. What I am asking you is …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Minister, this is the most strange Question Time. I have three documents in front of me …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! I cannot hear at the moment. Minister, I am unable to determine the validity of these documents. I am asking you as the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services: do you, as the minister, have a document which is similar to these which might verify these figures?
Dr BURNS: Not to my knowledge, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: In that case, I have to say it is very difficult to ask questions on a document which may not be valid …
Ms Carney: Sorry, I did not hear his answer, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: The government is indicating that they will not take questions on the document because they consider it to be invalid. Leader of the Opposition, in asking further questions, I ask you to be more general in the questions as opposed to relating them directly to the document.
The process in this House is that document is tabled. It goes to the Tabled Papers Office and is signed by the Clerk. I have a copy of the document that was tabled by the Leader of the Opposition, signed by the Clerk – so unless the Clerk is somehow part of this conspiracy – which states ‘copy of leaked document’.
The Leader of the Opposition is on the public record, on the Hansard, stating that she did not table …
Ms Carney: I can assist, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … that she did not table a document that stated ‘copy of a leaked document’.
So that we can have a Question Time where we are focused on substantive debate, the Leader of the Opposition can come clean and acknowledge that she has not tabled a leaked document, this is a copy of a leaked document …
Ms Carney: Here it is. Same document.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … which I challenge her to produce the document that it has been leaked from. I believe that this is a dodgy fabrication and compilation of figures that have been doctored up in the Leader of the Opposition’s office. She needs to table …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … she needs to table the original document that this comes from and acknowledge that the document she tabled in this House is one that was signed by the Clerk, which I tabled …
Ms Carney: You are so twitchy about this document. You hate this document.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … stating ‘copy of leaked document’. She is on the public record saying she did not table it …
Ms Carney: Speaking to the point of order, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: She did, and she needs to now produce the original document that this comes from. My assertion is that there is no document. It is a dodgy compilation of figures that comes from her office, Madam Speaker.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Order! Please resume your seat, Leader of the Opposition. I have not seen a copy of this. I would like to receive a copy. Leader of the Opposition, do you have a copy of exactly what you tabled?
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, yes, well …
Madam SPEAKER: Do you have a copy of exactly what you tabled, Leader of the Opposition? Leader of the Opposition, yes or no?
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, I have two copies …
Madam SPEAKER: Yes or no, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: The one that …
Madam SPEAKER: Yes or no, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: Sorry, well, the one that was tabled, I do not have the original back from the staff …
Madam SPEAKER: Do you have an exact copy of what you tabled, Leader of the Opposition?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Could you please table it now?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker. May I clarify a matter …
Madam SPEAKER: No. Could you please - Leader of the Opposition could you please table it now. I would like to receive a copy of that immediately. I shall examine the documents and then I will ask you some questions and allow you to speak. I would like to look at that document.
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, I can clarify it now …
Madam SPEAKER: I would like to look at that document first. Please resume your seat. I will wait for a Table Office staff to bring me a copy of the document.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Honourable members, order!
Leader of the Opposition, I have in front of me two documents which appear to be identical and which say ‘copy of leaked document’. Is this correct? You have tabled a document which says ‘copy of leaked document’, despite the fact that you said before that you did not say that.
Ms CARNEY: Yes, and I am keen to …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, government members!
Leader of the Opposition, you tabled a document. You have repeatedly claimed to the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services that you did not table a document that said ‘copy of leaked document’. Yet, you have just given me a copy of the document and I have another copy of the original document. Can you explain this?
Ms CARNEY: Yes, Madam Speaker. I am very keen to explain it, thank you. The document that was tabled was tabled accidentally. We all make honest mistakes in this parliament and …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, order! Deputy Chief Minister, cease interjecting. I wish to hear what the Leader of the Opposition has to say. This is a very serious matter.
Ms CARNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I had two bundles, one of which my staff had given to me. This is a copy of the original document, identical in every respect except ‘copy of leaked document’ on it. I would like to table it. Its content is identical and I apologise for my inadvertent mistake.
Madam SPEAKER: This is supposedly the original document?
Ms CARNEY: It is a copy of the original document, Madam Speaker, a copy to protect the source, which, of course, is required under the administration of this government and not uncommon, in fact regular practice in this House.
Madam SPEAKER: Please table the document. Before we continue, Mr Clerk, I seek your advice.
While it is clear that the Leader of the Opposition has in fact misled the House, she has apologised and explained herself. However, I would like you, Leader of the Opposition, to apologise to the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services who, in good faith, believed that this was a different document.
Ms CARNEY: I am happy to do so, Madam Speaker. Please accept my apology. The content of the document is, as you know, the same.
Mr HENDERSON: Madam Speaker, I have a further point of order. In regards to whichever document we are talking about, either the one that does not have ‘copy of leaked document’ or the one that does have ‘copy of leaked document’, this goes to a matter of substance.
The Leader of the Opposition is asserting that this document has some sort of authority or validity in order to pursue this line of questioning. There are formal documents tabled by the Police Commissioner every year in Estimates hearings, in the annual report, which actually state the numbers of police and where they are stationed across the Northern Territory. They are figures and documents on the public record.
I assert that this is nothing but a fabrication. The challenge for the Leader of the Opposition, and I assert that it has been fabricated in her office …
Ms Carney: Madam Speaker, that is offensive and outrageous.
Madam SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat!
Mr HENDERSON: The challenge for the Leader of the Opposition is to actually provide the original document. This looks like a pretty official - I have seen enough police documents in my time, Madam Speaker - to produce the original document that this came from so we can see whether the document has any validity at all. I believe that this is a fabrication and it is certainly defined as that, with ‘copy of leaked document’ on it. What is the original? Where is the source coming from? What authority? All of the relevant facts are on the public record.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, if I can speak to the point of order. Under my leadership, we intend to protect sources who give us material; to do otherwise would be bizarre and offensive. That is a document upon which we rely to show how dishonest this government has been with the police numbers.
Mr Henderson: You fabricated it.
Ms CARNEY: It is for the minister for Police, not the Leader of Government Business, to stand up. He has not actually discounted the contents of the documents. If he says it is untrue, then he can simply say so on the Parliamentary Record. He can spare the messenger as it were, and we will take the appropriate action, both in and outside the Chamber.
Mr Stirling: You have already lied once. Show us the original.
Madam SPEAKER: Deputy Chief Minister, I have asked you to withdraw.
Mr STIRLING: I withdraw, Madam Speaker, but the Leader of the Opposition has been sprung putting fraudulent documents before the House.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order, order!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, I want to make a quick point. There is a long tradition in this House that it is not acceptable to recast a document and then give it status. You have to be able to prove the original documentation. There have been previous times in the House where documentation, exactly as the Leader of the Opposition has done, has been rejected because it does not have credibility.
Ms Carney: He can deny it. He has not denied it. You do not know anything about it.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, unless we work from the original documentation, how do we know what is recast and what its status is? It is a very important fact that we deal with original documentation here, not something that the Opposition Leader’s staff have created on the fourth floor.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! I would appreciate a bit of silence while we try to sort this out.
Honourable members, I have three documents in front of me, two of which say ‘copy of a leaked document’, and one which appears to be identical to the copy of the leaked document which the Leader of the Opposition says has been leaked to her by some source within the police.
Leader of the Opposition, without giving the name of the source, I would like you to give some explanation of how this document has come into your hands so that we can attest as to whether it is a real document.
Ms CARNEY: Madam Speaker, the opposition regularly receives, just like Labor did when they were in opposition, documents from, essentially, public servants. They tend to be the ones who provide documents to the opposition. The original of this document, with an identifiable source on it, was provided to my office. In order to protect the source, which is nothing new, we have all done it, oppositions do it, everyone tables letters and they remove the identifiable source, as we should do because it is the right thing to do.
It was provided to us by a member of the police force. We were advised that it was an internal police document. The minister, and the former minister, both know that it is.
Madam SPEAKER: In my role as the Speaker, I am probably unable to do much more than hear from the Leader of the Opposition. I will allow further questions. Bear in mind, Leader of the Opposition, that it is clear that the government does not believe that this is a genuine document. It is not actually my role as the Speaker to determine, at this stage, whether it is a genuine document. It is certainly identical to the copy of the leaked document which is here, as it has been tabled twice. I am quite concerned about the validity of the document …
Ms Carney: An honest mistake, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: On advice, it is not my role, as the Speaker, to make that particular decision. Yes, Leader of the Government Business?
Mr HENDERSON: A point of order, Madam Speaker! This is supposed to be a House of truth and fact. The Leader of the Opposition has form. On the last General Business Day, she tabled - and we thought we were debating - a code of conduct that the Solicitor-General of the Northern Territory had provided advice to us was actually illegal. Then, whilst we were debating that particular document which she had originally tabled …
Ms CARNEY: A point of order, Madam Speaker!
Madam SPEAKER: No, Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat.
Mr HENDERSON: … she slipped something else on the table. The Leader of the Opposition has a history, a developing a history, of fabricating documents …
Ms Carney: You do not want the truth because you cannot keep your promise.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … and putting them into this Chamber as substantive fact in debate. The government cannot take questions on this document seriously because there is no source. There is no evidentiary fact as to the numbers in it. It is purely a fabrication from the Leader of the Opposition’s office …
Ms Carney: Well, the police officer is going to be very upset to hear what you have to say, sport.
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HENDERSON: … that she is developing a history. Territorians cannot trust her.
Madam SPEAKER: Thank you, Leader of Government Business. Leader of the Opposition, resume your seat. I would like to ask a question of the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services. Do you have a copy of a document which might have similar figures?
Dr BURNS: You mean the handwritten one that says ‘from a police source’? Is that the one, Madam Speaker?
Madam SPEAKER: No, no minister. What I am asking you is …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Minister, this is the most strange Question Time. I have three documents in front of me …
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! I cannot hear at the moment. Minister, I am unable to determine the validity of these documents. I am asking you as the Minister for Police, Fire and Emergency Services: do you, as the minister, have a document which is similar to these which might verify these figures?
Dr BURNS: Not to my knowledge, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: In that case, I have to say it is very difficult to ask questions on a document which may not be valid …
Ms Carney: Sorry, I did not hear his answer, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: The government is indicating that they will not take questions on the document because they consider it to be invalid. Leader of the Opposition, in asking further questions, I ask you to be more general in the questions as opposed to relating them directly to the document.
___________________________
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016