Mr BELL - 1995-10-18
Yesterday, Kevin Naughton's program on ABC radio had this to say: `The Commissioner for Public Employment said that he cannot see how he can go further in resolving the dispute with teachers'. Can the acting minister tell this House why he has allowed the government's dispute with Territory teachers to drag on for months? Does the acting minister agree that, by doing this, the minister is responsible for the continuing disruption of student activities, especially their out-of-hours activities? Can the acting minister explain whether the minister intends to allow this industrial action to continue or whether he is prepared to take some direct action to resolve these problems? Is the minister allowing this dispute to continue in the hope that teachers will drop the issue once the end-of-year holidays arrive? Why won't the government and this minister give teachers a separate enterprise agreement?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I believe the question should be redirected to the Minister for Public Employment.
Mr FINCH (Public Employment): Mr Speaker, the member asked why the minister might have allowed the dispute to drag on for so long. Firstly, the Minister for Education and Training has had no involvement in the dispute. The member himself knows that the answer lies with his buddies, the officials of the AEU. He knows very well, from announcements made by the Commissioner for Public Employment, that there a total impasse has been reached - an all-or-nothing approach. The commissioner has gone a long way in terms of conditions ...
Mr Stirling A long way?
Members interjecting.
Page 900
Mr FINCH: Earlier, you asked a question about release time for teachers, and I will deal with that for 2 seconds, if you like. The first point is that teachers are paid at present for 10 hours over and above class time.
Mr Stirling: So you want them to start recording all the things they do in that time?
Mr FINCH: Hear me out.
Mr Stirling: How long do you think that 10 hours lasts in a week?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr Stirling: It is gone in 3 days.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Nhulunbuy!
Mr FINCH: Let us take as an example the primary school at Nhulunbuy which has 620 or 630 students. I have visited there 3 or 4 times.
Mr Stirling: And no extra staff for them.
Mr FINCH: Given our student-teacher ratios, which are the best in the country, whether in primary schools or secondary schools ...
Mr Ede: Rubbish!
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: That is acknowledged by the ABS figures ...
Mr Stirling: Table the figures!
Mr FINCH: I will table them later when we have the substantive debate. That is not a problem. These figures have been quoted to you in previous debates. You cannot challenge them. You have had plenty of time to challenge them before.
Ms Martin: You make them up.
Mr FINCH: Come up with the real figures, if you reckon that. Do you have any faith in the ABS?
Mr Stirling: Not really, no.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: Selective tendering, we call it. Let me take the member's school as an example because, at that school, I think there is a specialist science room.
Page 901
Mr Coulter: No.
Mr FINCH: Other specialist activity? There is a language class in Nhulunbuy, isn't there?
A member: No.
Mr FINCH: That school has a very generous student-teacher ratio - and the principal is no longer taken into account in the formula. We have the most generous devolution packages given to any schools in Australia, and we have the highest ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr FINCH: We have 50% higher funding per student than the nearest state - not the average of the states, but the nearest state.
Mr Ede: You receive 3.5 times more funding.
Mr FINCH: We put it into that. You can see that it is in there.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: The students are receiving the money, the schools are receiving the money. Given the flexibility that is available in schools which are the size of the member for Nhulunbuy's, he should be the last one to talk.
Mr Stirling: These are the same teachers who have picked up, under devolution, all the activities that you forced down their throats.
Mr FINCH: When you have been to as many schools as I have, you can have a say in this. Let me tell you about the number of schools ...
Mr Bailey: Did you keep getting expelled?
Mr FINCH: It is a pity that you did not expire - and I am grammatically correct.
The number of schools that already provide release ...
Mr Bailey: Was the new legislation designed for you?
Mr FINCH: You might not be interested in all this, but the students in the gallery from Holy Family School and the university may be a little interested.
Mr Ede: Why won't you give them a separate agreement? That was the question.
Mr FINCH: I will come to that, but let me take up your other point first.
Page 902
In relation to the matter of release from classrooms, many schools have accommodated that requirement already because of their generous staffing arrangements. When you visit schools, you can see for yourself what is happening. Indonesian may be being taught to a class. Where is the usual classroom teacher? That teacher is off on release. Thus, in addition to the 10 hours they are paid for release activities already, there is an ability and an opportunity - when sports lessons are being held or when somebody is there to teach dance or other subjects of that kind, which are paid for from the generous funding for part-time instructors - and the flexibility that comes with relief money ...
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: All of those matters add up, and it happens already in the major schools. I will come to the point. What the commissioner wants to discuss is how to enshrine that release - with some funding, by the way. He cannot even get to talk about it because the union crows, `Separate agreement!' Why do you think it crows, `Separate agreement'?
Mr Stirling: Less than half the agreement applies to them, for God's sake.
Mr Coulter: 17 clauses.
Mr Stirling: 17 clauses out of 35 - that is less than half.
Mr FINCH: Yes. They could have ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr FINCH: I am not too cynical. However, let me ask members opposite what benefit lies for teachers in having a separate agreement. They can have all of the conditions they want written into the principal agreement, if there is an attachment especially for teachers that gives them appropriate acknowledgment - an acknowledgment that, by the way, this government has given them.
Mr Ede: No one has given them professional status, which you have been eroding over these years.
Mr FINCH: Do not talk to me about professional status and acknowledgment. Nobody has greater admiration and respect for teachers than I, from firsthand experience.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: ... a few union officials. That would be the depth of your discussion.
Members interjecting.
Page 903
Mr FINCH: When we want to talk about enshrining ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is far too much discussion across the Chamber.
Mr FINCH: We can recognise the quality of their work and the respect we all have for teachers, and they know we can do that. We can do it by means of an indication in the main agreement, even by means of a specific attachment relating solely to teachers that is legally binding, thereby ensuring that none of those conditions can be altered. Whether it is release time, 3-year training, 4-year training or any other condition, all can be enshrined in that.
Mr Bailey: Then why won't you do it?
Mr FINCH: Members opposite cannot argue for a second that teachers cannot obtain the conditions that they are seeking under the arrangements we have put forward. We have compromised along the way to reach that point, but it cannot be argued that the conditions cannot be enshrined. Thus, there can be no argument about retention and attraction. We had only 700 applicants for 30 jobs in the middle of the year!
Members interjecting.
Mr Stirling: Where do you think we will be when the shortage really hits?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr FINCH: Your problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. Your mouth is in gear before your brain.
Let me explain the other dimensions very quickly. There are simply no legs left to the argument for a separate agreement - other than if, as in New South Wales, workers want to get out on their own to make a deal with a newly-elected Labor government and receive a you-beaut special complimentary package for votes returned. I know that teachers in the Northern Territory are far smarter than that. They do not have the same political allegiances that teachers have in New South Wales. Thus, that argument has run out of legs also. We will not see the unions divide and conquer ...
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: The Northern Territory Public Service is a very small work force of 14 000. As far as we are concerned, with the exception of a few legitimate cases, all public servants will be subject to the same percentage increases.
Mr Bailey: Except for police officers and bus drivers.
Mr FINCH: We can explain all that later. That is enough for now. There is no case for a separate agreement, other than the desire to divide and conquer. That is the sort of tactic members opposite want to promote. From my point of view, teachers can and should receive all the conditions that they are pursuing, but they are unable even to discuss it until the union
Page 904
helps to move that big rock from the middle of the road. A single enterprise bargaining agreement for teachers is not on.
Page 905
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I believe the question should be redirected to the Minister for Public Employment.
Mr FINCH (Public Employment): Mr Speaker, the member asked why the minister might have allowed the dispute to drag on for so long. Firstly, the Minister for Education and Training has had no involvement in the dispute. The member himself knows that the answer lies with his buddies, the officials of the AEU. He knows very well, from announcements made by the Commissioner for Public Employment, that there a total impasse has been reached - an all-or-nothing approach. The commissioner has gone a long way in terms of conditions ...
Mr Stirling A long way?
Members interjecting.
Page 900
Mr FINCH: Earlier, you asked a question about release time for teachers, and I will deal with that for 2 seconds, if you like. The first point is that teachers are paid at present for 10 hours over and above class time.
Mr Stirling: So you want them to start recording all the things they do in that time?
Mr FINCH: Hear me out.
Mr Stirling: How long do you think that 10 hours lasts in a week?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr Stirling: It is gone in 3 days.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member for Nhulunbuy!
Mr FINCH: Let us take as an example the primary school at Nhulunbuy which has 620 or 630 students. I have visited there 3 or 4 times.
Mr Stirling: And no extra staff for them.
Mr FINCH: Given our student-teacher ratios, which are the best in the country, whether in primary schools or secondary schools ...
Mr Ede: Rubbish!
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: That is acknowledged by the ABS figures ...
Mr Stirling: Table the figures!
Mr FINCH: I will table them later when we have the substantive debate. That is not a problem. These figures have been quoted to you in previous debates. You cannot challenge them. You have had plenty of time to challenge them before.
Ms Martin: You make them up.
Mr FINCH: Come up with the real figures, if you reckon that. Do you have any faith in the ABS?
Mr Stirling: Not really, no.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: Selective tendering, we call it. Let me take the member's school as an example because, at that school, I think there is a specialist science room.
Page 901
Mr Coulter: No.
Mr FINCH: Other specialist activity? There is a language class in Nhulunbuy, isn't there?
A member: No.
Mr FINCH: That school has a very generous student-teacher ratio - and the principal is no longer taken into account in the formula. We have the most generous devolution packages given to any schools in Australia, and we have the highest ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr FINCH: We have 50% higher funding per student than the nearest state - not the average of the states, but the nearest state.
Mr Ede: You receive 3.5 times more funding.
Mr FINCH: We put it into that. You can see that it is in there.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: The students are receiving the money, the schools are receiving the money. Given the flexibility that is available in schools which are the size of the member for Nhulunbuy's, he should be the last one to talk.
Mr Stirling: These are the same teachers who have picked up, under devolution, all the activities that you forced down their throats.
Mr FINCH: When you have been to as many schools as I have, you can have a say in this. Let me tell you about the number of schools ...
Mr Bailey: Did you keep getting expelled?
Mr FINCH: It is a pity that you did not expire - and I am grammatically correct.
The number of schools that already provide release ...
Mr Bailey: Was the new legislation designed for you?
Mr FINCH: You might not be interested in all this, but the students in the gallery from Holy Family School and the university may be a little interested.
Mr Ede: Why won't you give them a separate agreement? That was the question.
Mr FINCH: I will come to that, but let me take up your other point first.
Page 902
In relation to the matter of release from classrooms, many schools have accommodated that requirement already because of their generous staffing arrangements. When you visit schools, you can see for yourself what is happening. Indonesian may be being taught to a class. Where is the usual classroom teacher? That teacher is off on release. Thus, in addition to the 10 hours they are paid for release activities already, there is an ability and an opportunity - when sports lessons are being held or when somebody is there to teach dance or other subjects of that kind, which are paid for from the generous funding for part-time instructors - and the flexibility that comes with relief money ...
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: All of those matters add up, and it happens already in the major schools. I will come to the point. What the commissioner wants to discuss is how to enshrine that release - with some funding, by the way. He cannot even get to talk about it because the union crows, `Separate agreement!' Why do you think it crows, `Separate agreement'?
Mr Stirling: Less than half the agreement applies to them, for God's sake.
Mr Coulter: 17 clauses.
Mr Stirling: 17 clauses out of 35 - that is less than half.
Mr FINCH: Yes. They could have ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr FINCH: I am not too cynical. However, let me ask members opposite what benefit lies for teachers in having a separate agreement. They can have all of the conditions they want written into the principal agreement, if there is an attachment especially for teachers that gives them appropriate acknowledgment - an acknowledgment that, by the way, this government has given them.
Mr Ede: No one has given them professional status, which you have been eroding over these years.
Mr FINCH: Do not talk to me about professional status and acknowledgment. Nobody has greater admiration and respect for teachers than I, from firsthand experience.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: ... a few union officials. That would be the depth of your discussion.
Members interjecting.
Page 903
Mr FINCH: When we want to talk about enshrining ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is far too much discussion across the Chamber.
Mr FINCH: We can recognise the quality of their work and the respect we all have for teachers, and they know we can do that. We can do it by means of an indication in the main agreement, even by means of a specific attachment relating solely to teachers that is legally binding, thereby ensuring that none of those conditions can be altered. Whether it is release time, 3-year training, 4-year training or any other condition, all can be enshrined in that.
Mr Bailey: Then why won't you do it?
Mr FINCH: Members opposite cannot argue for a second that teachers cannot obtain the conditions that they are seeking under the arrangements we have put forward. We have compromised along the way to reach that point, but it cannot be argued that the conditions cannot be enshrined. Thus, there can be no argument about retention and attraction. We had only 700 applicants for 30 jobs in the middle of the year!
Members interjecting.
Mr Stirling: Where do you think we will be when the shortage really hits?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr FINCH: Your problem is that you do not know what you are talking about. Your mouth is in gear before your brain.
Let me explain the other dimensions very quickly. There are simply no legs left to the argument for a separate agreement - other than if, as in New South Wales, workers want to get out on their own to make a deal with a newly-elected Labor government and receive a you-beaut special complimentary package for votes returned. I know that teachers in the Northern Territory are far smarter than that. They do not have the same political allegiances that teachers have in New South Wales. Thus, that argument has run out of legs also. We will not see the unions divide and conquer ...
Members interjecting.
Mr FINCH: The Northern Territory Public Service is a very small work force of 14 000. As far as we are concerned, with the exception of a few legitimate cases, all public servants will be subject to the same percentage increases.
Mr Bailey: Except for police officers and bus drivers.
Mr FINCH: We can explain all that later. That is enough for now. There is no case for a separate agreement, other than the desire to divide and conquer. That is the sort of tactic members opposite want to promote. From my point of view, teachers can and should receive all the conditions that they are pursuing, but they are unable even to discuss it until the union
Page 904
helps to move that big rock from the middle of the road. A single enterprise bargaining agreement for teachers is not on.
Page 905
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016