Mr BAILEY - 1997-06-17
I refer to my dissenting report which the member refused to table in this House. On 25 February, the secretary of the Public Accounts Committee told her the information in my dissenting report was not confidential. She was told that the information contained within the dissenting report ...
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order. The member should seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, under standing order 110, my understanding is ...
Mr Bell: What question? How do you know about it?
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I believe that the member should seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, under standing order 110, a question may be put to a member, not being a minister, relating to any bill, motion or other public matter connected with the business of the Assembly, of which the member has charge.
Mr SPEAKER: It is my understanding that that refers to matters on the Notice Paper.
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, my point of order is that the member was quoting directly from a document that is not authorised for publication. He does not have authority to disclose that memo.
Mr SPEAKER: That in itself is a difficult point for me to rule on. In fact, there is a requirement for the member to seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, I seek leave to ask a question of the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
Leave granted.
Page 2158
Mr BAILEY: I refer to my dissenting report which she refused to table in this House. On 25 February, the committee secretary told her the information in my dissenting report was not confidential. She was told that the information contained within the dissenting report was not of a sensitive nature as the events had occurred some 5 years ago and, unless there was specific mention of current projects, the department ...
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The member is referring to matters which are privy to the committee. Under standing order 274, he may not report proceedings of the committee or reports of the committee unless it has been authorised by the committee. He is making a statement about something that is a committee matter, not a matter for this parliament. As chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I can make that ...
Mr Toyne: It is a matter for the parliament.
Mrs BRAHAM: What he is referring to is a committee matter. It has never been released for publication. He was quoting directly from an internal memo.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! As far as I am aware, the member for Wanguri has not entered into detail as yet. He is asking a question of you. Are you ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I need to seek advice on this matter. As yet, I have not detected anything particularly confidential in what has been stated. I shall ask the Clerk to ...
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, he ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order ! The member for Braitling will resume her seat for a moment.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Could the member for Braitling indicate to me exactly what she is taking umbrage at? This is a very difficult situation for me. I am not aware of what is ...
A member: None of us is.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Yes, that is the problem that I face. Nobody is aware, and I am being forced to take the word of one member ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is up to me to judge. The Leader of Government Business will please refrain.
Mrs BRAHAM: Standing order 274 is quite clear: `The evidence taken by, documents presented to, and proceedings and reports of a committee which have not been reported to the Assembly shall not, unless authorised by the Assembly or the committee, be disclosed or published by any member of such committee, or by any other person'. What the member for
Page 2159
Wanguri was doing was talking about the proceedings of a committee. He was talking about a document belonging to the committee that has not been released for publication. He is out of order.
Mr BAILEY: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, it is important that the chairman of Public Accounts Committee is aware of standing order 274. It says that evidence taken by, documents presented to and proceedings and reports of a committee which have not been reported to the Assembly shall not be disclosed `unless authorised'. It is quite clear that, during the debate of 27 February, the matter relating to the grant to the North Australian Film Corporation was reported to this Assembly. The memo that I am referring to in my question was written to the secretary of the Public Accounts Committee, following a conversation with the Department of Asian Relations, Trade and Industry, informing the secretary that the information in my report was not of a confidential or commercial-in-confidence nature. That information was passed on to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Could I please hear this point of order out before taking yours?
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, the evidence was presented to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee at a meeting on the Thursday prior to the tabling of the reports. It was agreed that both reports - the majority report and the dissenting report - would be tabled. During that meeting, I requested the information from DARTI: `Mr Bailey requested a copy of the response to the secretary's request of Department of Asian Relations, Trade and Industry to identify which document they considered to be in confidence. The secretary advised that the request had been verbal, but he would be making a note to go on file about the conversation'.
Mrs Braham interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs Braham: Mr Speaker, he is reading directly from it. I have just said to you that that is an internal memo that should not be read in this parliament.
Mr BAILEY: No! That is from the minutes of the meeting.
Mrs Braham: It has not been authorised by the committee. If you continue to ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs Braham: ... flout committee rules constantly and get away with it, you may as well forget the committee system in this parliament.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BAILEY: My apologies. I am happy not to quote from the document.
Page 2160
Mr SPEAKER: I would prefer it if the member for Wanguri would refrain form utilising any material that is held by the committee to be in confidence or has not been presented to the Assembly. If he could phrase his question without utilising any of that material, I would appreciate it.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, on 25 February, the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee was told the information in my dissenting report was not of a confidential nature. On 27 February, she told the committee and the parliament that it was confidential. Does she accept that she has misled both the Public Accounts Committee and this House?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, as usual we have only half of this story because ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! You have asked the question. Could we please hear the member for Braitling in reasonable silence?
Mrs BRAHAM: There are 2 memos on file, and we have only heard about one. In all the debate on this report, at no stage has the committee given authorisation for these documents ...
Mr Stirling: What is the answer?
Mrs BRAHAM: That is the bottom line. The committee has never authorised the release of these documents and that is what I have stated continually in this House. On 25 February, I stated: `I wish to alert the Assembly to the fact that there is a dissenting report that contains evidence that has not been authorised by the committee for publications required under standing order 274 ...'
Mr BAILEY: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The chairman of the Public Accounts Committee just read from the memo she said I was not allowed to read from. There are double standards.
Mrs Braham: I was reading from Hansard.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order.
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, my point is that this a committee matter. It is not something that should be discussed in this House.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am having difficulty hearing what the member is saying.
Page 2161
Mrs BRAHAM: The committee is the place for it to be discussed and it has not been as yet. I did not mislead parliament. I have said at all times that the committee has not authorised the release of these documents.
Page 2162
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is a point of order. The member should seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, under standing order 110, my understanding is ...
Mr Bell: What question? How do you know about it?
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I believe that the member should seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, under standing order 110, a question may be put to a member, not being a minister, relating to any bill, motion or other public matter connected with the business of the Assembly, of which the member has charge.
Mr SPEAKER: It is my understanding that that refers to matters on the Notice Paper.
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, my point of order is that the member was quoting directly from a document that is not authorised for publication. He does not have authority to disclose that memo.
Mr SPEAKER: That in itself is a difficult point for me to rule on. In fact, there is a requirement for the member to seek leave to ask this question.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, I seek leave to ask a question of the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
Leave granted.
Page 2158
Mr BAILEY: I refer to my dissenting report which she refused to table in this House. On 25 February, the committee secretary told her the information in my dissenting report was not confidential. She was told that the information contained within the dissenting report was not of a sensitive nature as the events had occurred some 5 years ago and, unless there was specific mention of current projects, the department ...
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The member is referring to matters which are privy to the committee. Under standing order 274, he may not report proceedings of the committee or reports of the committee unless it has been authorised by the committee. He is making a statement about something that is a committee matter, not a matter for this parliament. As chairman of the Public Accounts Committee, I can make that ...
Mr Toyne: It is a matter for the parliament.
Mrs BRAHAM: What he is referring to is a committee matter. It has never been released for publication. He was quoting directly from an internal memo.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! As far as I am aware, the member for Wanguri has not entered into detail as yet. He is asking a question of you. Are you ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I need to seek advice on this matter. As yet, I have not detected anything particularly confidential in what has been stated. I shall ask the Clerk to ...
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, he ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order ! The member for Braitling will resume her seat for a moment.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Could the member for Braitling indicate to me exactly what she is taking umbrage at? This is a very difficult situation for me. I am not aware of what is ...
A member: None of us is.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Yes, that is the problem that I face. Nobody is aware, and I am being forced to take the word of one member ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! It is up to me to judge. The Leader of Government Business will please refrain.
Mrs BRAHAM: Standing order 274 is quite clear: `The evidence taken by, documents presented to, and proceedings and reports of a committee which have not been reported to the Assembly shall not, unless authorised by the Assembly or the committee, be disclosed or published by any member of such committee, or by any other person'. What the member for
Page 2159
Wanguri was doing was talking about the proceedings of a committee. He was talking about a document belonging to the committee that has not been released for publication. He is out of order.
Mr BAILEY: Speaking to the point of order, Mr Speaker, it is important that the chairman of Public Accounts Committee is aware of standing order 274. It says that evidence taken by, documents presented to and proceedings and reports of a committee which have not been reported to the Assembly shall not be disclosed `unless authorised'. It is quite clear that, during the debate of 27 February, the matter relating to the grant to the North Australian Film Corporation was reported to this Assembly. The memo that I am referring to in my question was written to the secretary of the Public Accounts Committee, following a conversation with the Department of Asian Relations, Trade and Industry, informing the secretary that the information in my report was not of a confidential or commercial-in-confidence nature. That information was passed on to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee.
Mrs BRAHAM: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Could I please hear this point of order out before taking yours?
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, the evidence was presented to the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee at a meeting on the Thursday prior to the tabling of the reports. It was agreed that both reports - the majority report and the dissenting report - would be tabled. During that meeting, I requested the information from DARTI: `Mr Bailey requested a copy of the response to the secretary's request of Department of Asian Relations, Trade and Industry to identify which document they considered to be in confidence. The secretary advised that the request had been verbal, but he would be making a note to go on file about the conversation'.
Mrs Braham interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs Braham: Mr Speaker, he is reading directly from it. I have just said to you that that is an internal memo that should not be read in this parliament.
Mr BAILEY: No! That is from the minutes of the meeting.
Mrs Braham: It has not been authorised by the committee. If you continue to ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mrs Braham: ... flout committee rules constantly and get away with it, you may as well forget the committee system in this parliament.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BAILEY: My apologies. I am happy not to quote from the document.
Page 2160
Mr SPEAKER: I would prefer it if the member for Wanguri would refrain form utilising any material that is held by the committee to be in confidence or has not been presented to the Assembly. If he could phrase his question without utilising any of that material, I would appreciate it.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, on 25 February, the chairman of the Public Accounts Committee was told the information in my dissenting report was not of a confidential nature. On 27 February, she told the committee and the parliament that it was confidential. Does she accept that she has misled both the Public Accounts Committee and this House?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, as usual we have only half of this story because ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! You have asked the question. Could we please hear the member for Braitling in reasonable silence?
Mrs BRAHAM: There are 2 memos on file, and we have only heard about one. In all the debate on this report, at no stage has the committee given authorisation for these documents ...
Mr Stirling: What is the answer?
Mrs BRAHAM: That is the bottom line. The committee has never authorised the release of these documents and that is what I have stated continually in this House. On 25 February, I stated: `I wish to alert the Assembly to the fact that there is a dissenting report that contains evidence that has not been authorised by the committee for publications required under standing order 274 ...'
Mr BAILEY: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The chairman of the Public Accounts Committee just read from the memo she said I was not allowed to read from. There are double standards.
Mrs Braham: I was reading from Hansard.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! There is no point of order.
Mrs BRAHAM: Mr Speaker, my point is that this a committee matter. It is not something that should be discussed in this House.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am having difficulty hearing what the member is saying.
Page 2161
Mrs BRAHAM: The committee is the place for it to be discussed and it has not been as yet. I did not mislead parliament. I have said at all times that the committee has not authorised the release of these documents.
Page 2162
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016