Mr SPEAKER - 1996-10-10
Mr SPEAKER: Honourable members, it has been drawn to my attention that a number of comments have been made by the Leader of the Opposition relating to proceedings in the Assembly yesterday, to the effect that I supported the Chief Minister in using his position unfairly in the parliament. Further, the Leader of the Opposition stated that I took it upon myself to name her straightaway and that `the Speaker threw me out of the House'.
I point out that the proceedings accurately recorded in Hansard indicate that the Leader of the Opposition was named for refusing to withdraw an interjection following a point of order by the Chief Minister. In asking the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw, I was following established practice of the House. She was named, pursuant to standing order 239, for using objectionable words which she had refused to withdraw.
Mr Bell: Offensive and unbecoming words - `a tissue of lies'?
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Honourable members would be aware that the Speaker's actions may be criticised only by way of a substantive motion and any reflection on the Speaker's character or actions inside or outside the House is a most serious matter. I regard the Leader of the Opposition's reported allegations as an unwarranted reflection on the Chair, and an apology is in order.
Mrs HICKEY (Opposition Leader): Mr Speaker, in responding to the remarks that you have just made, at the outset I give you my apologies. I do so because I am aware that any reflection on the Chair, either within this House or outside of it, attracts penalties that I do not wish to incur.
Notwithstanding the apology that I have made, I believe that many of the comments were justified in terms of the events that occurred yesterday. I say that because it is my belief, my understanding and my remembrance of the situation that, when the Chief Minister said, `she must withdraw that remark', in terms of my comment about a tissue of lies, he had not called a point of order. He had interjected from his chair. That is the reason for my suggestion that, in fact, you had not responded to a point of order. That is my recollection of the situation, and I think that is borne out by the Hansard record. No point of order was called. The Chief Minister interjected from his chair.
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I want to get things back on the rails again. All opposition members do. I believe it is probably the honest intent of decent members of the government that that happens. However, in this House we face an increasingly difficult situation in terms of honest debate and decent debate. I am not reflecting on the Chair when I say this, Sir. I am saying that much of this has resulted from the actions of the current Chief Minister because, since his elevation to the chief ministership, we have seen a rapid increase in the number of gaggings of debate, in the number of personal slurs that have emanated through this House and, in so far as he is able and in so far as he can, an increasing abuse of his position in this House.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the Opposition has been given the opportunity to apologise. If she wishes to make a personal explanation or to enter into debate on the issue, she should do so at another time. It is clearly accepted that a point of order was called. You may not see it as a point of order, but a point of order was called yesterday. I responded to that point of order.
Mrs Hickey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: There was a point of order. I am sorry. You may wish to differ on that, but a point of order was called. It is a matter of interpretation, but there was a point of order ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am not entering into debate on the issue. I am stating the facts. The facts are that unparliamentary language was used. The Leader of the Opposition was not thrown out of the Chamber by the Speaker. She was voted out of this Chamber by the Assembly. No option was available to me but to name her when she refused to withdraw, and she knew that. I do not wish to enter into any further debate on the issue, but the point needs to be made clear.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I seek your clarification in respect of this matter. I preface my comments by saying that I find it extraordinary that a meek phrase ...
Mr Coulter: What is the point of order?
Mr BELL: I will get to it in a minute, if you would like to stop interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I find it extraordinary that a meek phrase like `a tissue of lies' can be assessed to be offensive or unbecoming. That stretches my imagination. My point of order is that you said this morning that you were responding to a point of order. I draw your attention to page 4 of the daily Hansard, and I draw your attention and the attention of honourable members to the fact that what you have just said is not borne out by the Hansard record. If you intend to sit in here and say that a point of order was called, when the Hansard record reveals that that was simply not the case, we have a real problem.
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Mr SPEAKER: You may well have a real problem. There is no point of order. In fact, the Chief Minister, before ...
Mr Bell: Mr Speaker ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Before the Chief Minister sat down yesterday, he called a point of order. He then sat down and said that she must withdraw. There was a high level of interjection occurring in the Chamber. A problem that Hansard has continuously is that, because of the level of interjections in the House, they are unable to hear some words. However, those words were used, and they were heard by me as Speaker.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, on the issue there ...
Mr SPEAKER: Are you calling a point of order? I have ruled on the previous one.
Mr BAILEY: I am happy to do it as a dissent from your ruling, if that is what you would like. Basically, what I am saying is ...
Mr SPEAKER: Are you calling a point of order?
Mr BAILEY: Yes. The point of order relates to what was said yesterday. That is what I would like to suggest. The Chief Minister was saying: `Does anyone listening to this broadcast believe that, if that had actually happened, members opposite would not have been on their feet first thing yesterday morning with such a serious allegation'. The Leader of the Opposition said: `It is a tissue of lies, and you know it'. The Speaker interjected: `Order!' In other words, he was objecting to an interjection. The Leader of the Opposition then just said: `Absolute lies'. In relation to what? In relation to whom? The Chief Minister said: `She should withdraw that'. There was no point of order. It was not related to anybody. Withdraw what? What point of order? You should have made a ruling then and there that there was no point of order. She was sitting there saying, `Absolute lies'. It was not directed at anybody. It shows, in fact, there was no point of order and there should never have been because the member did not accuse anyone of lying.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! A point of order was called. The ruling was that the comment should be withdrawn, and it was not withdrawn. The facts remain. That is the reason why the Leader of the Opposition was suspended from the service of the House - no other.
Mr Bailey: You realise, then, that whenever the word `lies' is used anywhere, referring to anyone, anything ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! No further comment is required. If the member for Wanguri wants to be honest about this, he will know that there are levels to which matters may go. Yesterday, they went beyond the pale - maybe only slightly, but they went beyond the pale.
Mr Bell: Do you agree with that, Shane? Do you object to `a tissue of lies'?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
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Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, since I have earned a spray here this morning, I would like to exercise my rights by way of a personal explanation. The allegation has been made that ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: There is a point of order. There is a form for personal explanations that needs to be complied with. The Chief Minister will have an opportunity to give an explanation a little later.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I seek leave to make an explanation.
Mr SPEAKER: Is leave granted? Leave is not granted.
Mr Stone: Of course, Mr Speaker, they do not want the public who are listening to the broadcast to hear. These are the champions of free speech! Don't let Stone speak! You are weak.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
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I point out that the proceedings accurately recorded in Hansard indicate that the Leader of the Opposition was named for refusing to withdraw an interjection following a point of order by the Chief Minister. In asking the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw, I was following established practice of the House. She was named, pursuant to standing order 239, for using objectionable words which she had refused to withdraw.
Mr Bell: Offensive and unbecoming words - `a tissue of lies'?
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Honourable members would be aware that the Speaker's actions may be criticised only by way of a substantive motion and any reflection on the Speaker's character or actions inside or outside the House is a most serious matter. I regard the Leader of the Opposition's reported allegations as an unwarranted reflection on the Chair, and an apology is in order.
Mrs HICKEY (Opposition Leader): Mr Speaker, in responding to the remarks that you have just made, at the outset I give you my apologies. I do so because I am aware that any reflection on the Chair, either within this House or outside of it, attracts penalties that I do not wish to incur.
Notwithstanding the apology that I have made, I believe that many of the comments were justified in terms of the events that occurred yesterday. I say that because it is my belief, my understanding and my remembrance of the situation that, when the Chief Minister said, `she must withdraw that remark', in terms of my comment about a tissue of lies, he had not called a point of order. He had interjected from his chair. That is the reason for my suggestion that, in fact, you had not responded to a point of order. That is my recollection of the situation, and I think that is borne out by the Hansard record. No point of order was called. The Chief Minister interjected from his chair.
Page 1660
I want to get things back on the rails again. All opposition members do. I believe it is probably the honest intent of decent members of the government that that happens. However, in this House we face an increasingly difficult situation in terms of honest debate and decent debate. I am not reflecting on the Chair when I say this, Sir. I am saying that much of this has resulted from the actions of the current Chief Minister because, since his elevation to the chief ministership, we have seen a rapid increase in the number of gaggings of debate, in the number of personal slurs that have emanated through this House and, in so far as he is able and in so far as he can, an increasing abuse of his position in this House.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The Leader of the Opposition has been given the opportunity to apologise. If she wishes to make a personal explanation or to enter into debate on the issue, she should do so at another time. It is clearly accepted that a point of order was called. You may not see it as a point of order, but a point of order was called yesterday. I responded to that point of order.
Mrs Hickey interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: There was a point of order. I am sorry. You may wish to differ on that, but a point of order was called. It is a matter of interpretation, but there was a point of order ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I am not entering into debate on the issue. I am stating the facts. The facts are that unparliamentary language was used. The Leader of the Opposition was not thrown out of the Chamber by the Speaker. She was voted out of this Chamber by the Assembly. No option was available to me but to name her when she refused to withdraw, and she knew that. I do not wish to enter into any further debate on the issue, but the point needs to be made clear.
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I seek your clarification in respect of this matter. I preface my comments by saying that I find it extraordinary that a meek phrase ...
Mr Coulter: What is the point of order?
Mr BELL: I will get to it in a minute, if you would like to stop interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I find it extraordinary that a meek phrase like `a tissue of lies' can be assessed to be offensive or unbecoming. That stretches my imagination. My point of order is that you said this morning that you were responding to a point of order. I draw your attention to page 4 of the daily Hansard, and I draw your attention and the attention of honourable members to the fact that what you have just said is not borne out by the Hansard record. If you intend to sit in here and say that a point of order was called, when the Hansard record reveals that that was simply not the case, we have a real problem.
Page 1661
Mr SPEAKER: You may well have a real problem. There is no point of order. In fact, the Chief Minister, before ...
Mr Bell: Mr Speaker ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Before the Chief Minister sat down yesterday, he called a point of order. He then sat down and said that she must withdraw. There was a high level of interjection occurring in the Chamber. A problem that Hansard has continuously is that, because of the level of interjections in the House, they are unable to hear some words. However, those words were used, and they were heard by me as Speaker.
Mr BAILEY: Mr Speaker, on the issue there ...
Mr SPEAKER: Are you calling a point of order? I have ruled on the previous one.
Mr BAILEY: I am happy to do it as a dissent from your ruling, if that is what you would like. Basically, what I am saying is ...
Mr SPEAKER: Are you calling a point of order?
Mr BAILEY: Yes. The point of order relates to what was said yesterday. That is what I would like to suggest. The Chief Minister was saying: `Does anyone listening to this broadcast believe that, if that had actually happened, members opposite would not have been on their feet first thing yesterday morning with such a serious allegation'. The Leader of the Opposition said: `It is a tissue of lies, and you know it'. The Speaker interjected: `Order!' In other words, he was objecting to an interjection. The Leader of the Opposition then just said: `Absolute lies'. In relation to what? In relation to whom? The Chief Minister said: `She should withdraw that'. There was no point of order. It was not related to anybody. Withdraw what? What point of order? You should have made a ruling then and there that there was no point of order. She was sitting there saying, `Absolute lies'. It was not directed at anybody. It shows, in fact, there was no point of order and there should never have been because the member did not accuse anyone of lying.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! A point of order was called. The ruling was that the comment should be withdrawn, and it was not withdrawn. The facts remain. That is the reason why the Leader of the Opposition was suspended from the service of the House - no other.
Mr Bailey: You realise, then, that whenever the word `lies' is used anywhere, referring to anyone, anything ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! No further comment is required. If the member for Wanguri wants to be honest about this, he will know that there are levels to which matters may go. Yesterday, they went beyond the pale - maybe only slightly, but they went beyond the pale.
Mr Bell: Do you agree with that, Shane? Do you object to `a tissue of lies'?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
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Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, since I have earned a spray here this morning, I would like to exercise my rights by way of a personal explanation. The allegation has been made that ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker!
Mr SPEAKER: There is a point of order. There is a form for personal explanations that needs to be complied with. The Chief Minister will have an opportunity to give an explanation a little later.
Mr STONE: Mr Speaker, I seek leave to make an explanation.
Mr SPEAKER: Is leave granted? Leave is not granted.
Mr Stone: Of course, Mr Speaker, they do not want the public who are listening to the broadcast to hear. These are the champions of free speech! Don't let Stone speak! You are weak.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
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Last updated: 09 Aug 2016