Mr STIRLING - 1996-02-20
I refer the minister to a curious letter from the Secretary of the Department of Education to the President of the Australian Education Union. In this letter, the secretary states that he will advise the minister to alter legislation in order to exclude the union from the Northern Territory Board of Studies and the Education Advisory Council, as alluded to by the minister in his earlier answer. In this letter, the secretary also charges the union to consider not attending meetings pending a decision on these legislative changes. In other words, he is advising members of the union to breach their legislative responsibilities by not going to meetings which they have a clear responsibility, and a right, to attend.
Mr Speaker, I seek leave to table a copy of that letter.
Leave granted.
Mr STIRLING: Is the minister aware that his departmental secretary is acting contrary to public policy by counselling the union to abdicate its legislative responsibilities? Moreover, is he aware that, under the Public Sector Employment and Management Act, public servants who provide this counsel are acting improperly and are liable to disciplinary procedures? Has the minister initiated disciplinary procedures against his departmental secretary? If not, when will he do so?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I have read the letter. I will not take any disciplinary action against the secretary of the department, nor will I take any disciplinary action against the trade union if it does not attend at meetings of the Board of Studies or the Education Advisory Council. This was nothing more than a recommendation to the union, given the fact that it is doing everything it can to disrupt education. I thought it a very responsible approach by the department ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: In relation to my previous answer, I have received a recommendation from the department to that effect, but we have not yet made a decision where that matter is concerned. It is quite possible that we may take the decision to seek legislative amendments in respect of the Northern Territory The secretary was merely giving forward advice.
While I am on my feet, I will say that I think it is really good that, after 6 months of guerilla warfare by the trade unions, the member for Nhulunbuy, the shadow spokesman on education, finally has asked a question about the dispute. I would have thought it a matter of some public importance. All through last year, not one question was asked in the Assembly. The member for Nhulunbuy stood up ...
Members interjecting.
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Mr HATTON: ... what was going on in the dispute ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Then he jumps up on radio and says: `I would solve the problem. I do not know how, but I would solve it'.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Let us look at the facts at the moment. The offer that was made late last year was a without-prejudice final offer. That was rejected by the union. The Commissioner for Public Employment had ...
Mr Bailey: They gave you their without-prejudice final offer.
Mr HATTON: Do not display your ignorance.
Mr Stirling: What has this to do with the secretary encouraging people to break the law? That was the question.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: The Commissioner for Public Employment has advised the AEU that all of the offers, with the exception of the 3% and 4% pay increase, have been withdrawn. That means we are back to square 1 as far as negotiations are concerned.
It took Chris Sharpe until 3.40 pm last Friday to ring my office and ask for a meeting. I said that I was happy to meet with him. They turned up ...
Mr Bailey: No, you had been refusing up to that point in time.
Mr HATTON: Rubbish! I advised publicly at 9 am that I would be prepared to meet with the union - 9 am.
Mr Bailey: After 2 months of refusing to.
Mr HATTON: No, that is not true. The fact is that we did meet, and we explored a series of matters in the course of that meeting. The fact that the offer was withdrawn and that we are back to square 1 does not mean that negotiations cannot continue.
Members interjecting.
Mr Stirling: While you are whipping up a public campaign against them! What sort of spirit of negotiation ...
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Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will please resume his seat. I have stood just about enough of the backchat from the opposition benches. I ask both the member for Nhulunbuy and the member for Wanguri to refrain from further interjection.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, I make the simple point that it is the union that has been provocative for 6 months and that we have been restrained. If you poke somebody in the chest long enough and hard enough, eventually they will turn around and poke you in the chest in return. That is my simple response to the member for Nhulunbuy.
Let us place some facts on the table. The member for Nhulunbuy has been talking about the 15% pay increase in Western Australia. He does not say what the end result is in their salaries.
Mr Stirling: It puts them second from the top and leaves us second from the bottom. That is what the result is.
Mr HATTON: No, that is not actually true. I will table now a schedule of the salary scales of every state. That schedule incorporates our first-stage offer and the offers that have been made in every state to date, with the exception of South Australia. For the benefit for the member for Nhulunbuy, this morning the South Australian government made an offer of a composite 12% salary package. Even with that, it is still behind our offer to Northern Territory teachers.
Mr Stirling: But that is all right, is it?
Mr Bailey: We used to be the best in Australia.
Mr HATTON: Our salary scales are near the top in Australia, with our offer, and even with all those fancy offers that he is floating. At the end of the day, the question is how our salaries compare, how the changes compare. We are near the top. That is a fact. I table that schedule, Mr Speaker.
With regard to non-contact time, I note that, during the school week, all states have non-contact time for teachers. What they do not tell you is that currently those schools have fewer teachers for their numbers of kids than we have in the Northern Territory. Our teachers could take all the release time they liked, if they did not ask for extra resources, and they would still be ahead of the rest of Australia. We offered to provide resources, partially but substantially, to meet 2 hours release time.
Mr Stirling: Partially. You did nothing in the bigger primary schools, and you know it.
Mr HATTON: That is not true. In fact, we offered an hour a week per teacher. Get your facts right. An hour a week per teacher is 50% funding.
I have checked every school in the Territory. I have compared the numbers of staff and the numbers of students with the formula of every state. With the exception of, I think, one situation, in every case in the whole of the Territory, there are more teachers today in our
Page 1160
schools than in any state - and they already have the release time, all week. We are offering additional resources, and they say we are being unfair to them.
As further evidence, I table a document that describes average class sizes. That is how it comes out. We have fewer students per class ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: We are talking about national figures. There are more teachers for the number of students in every school in the Territory than there are in any state in Australia.
Mr Ede: That is not true.
Mr HATTON: I am saying that it is true. Are you accusing me of lying?
Mr Stirling: Including Aboriginal schools? What about the teacher ratio in community schools? This is nonsense!
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Even taking out our assistant teachers and leaving the assistant teachers in the interstate schools, we still have lower class sizes.
Mr Ede: Wrong!
Mr HATTON: Check your facts. I will get the statistics later.
Mr Stirling: There is a difference between teachers and ancillary staff.
Mr HATTON: We come down from national figures. It is 17.7 compared with 18.1, if you would like to know. That is a fact. We have many more assistant teachers in our schools as a proportion of our total teaching population than is the case interstate. They are somehow critical of us on that particular point. The proportion in our schools is greater ...
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr HATTON: ... we have the best non-teaching staff in schools in Australia, we have more teachers for the number of students than any state in Australia, and we are offering additional resources for release time. They can have as much release time as they like. The issue is the amount of additional resources they want for it, and that is where the dollars are.
Mr Stirling: It is not release time they want. It is planning and preparation time.
Mr HATTON: That is what it is about. They can have it ...
Mr Stirling: You are misrepresenting it.
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Mr HATTON: No, I am not. That is the simple fact. I am happy to go further later, but the reality is that it is a damn good offer.
Ms Martin: But it is unfunded.
Mr HATTON: That is not true. To call $10m-worth of additional resources unfunded is a new twist. Clearly, the member for Fannie Bay does not know what `unfunded' means. The teachers have $3.1m a year extra beyond what every other public sector person received and they are not asked to give up anything - unlike other parts of the public sector which gave up some benefits to obtain additional benefits. The teachers have been asked to give up nothing. If that is `unfunded', the member has a different dictionary to mine.
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Mr Speaker, I seek leave to table a copy of that letter.
Leave granted.
Mr STIRLING: Is the minister aware that his departmental secretary is acting contrary to public policy by counselling the union to abdicate its legislative responsibilities? Moreover, is he aware that, under the Public Sector Employment and Management Act, public servants who provide this counsel are acting improperly and are liable to disciplinary procedures? Has the minister initiated disciplinary procedures against his departmental secretary? If not, when will he do so?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I have read the letter. I will not take any disciplinary action against the secretary of the department, nor will I take any disciplinary action against the trade union if it does not attend at meetings of the Board of Studies or the Education Advisory Council. This was nothing more than a recommendation to the union, given the fact that it is doing everything it can to disrupt education. I thought it a very responsible approach by the department ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: In relation to my previous answer, I have received a recommendation from the department to that effect, but we have not yet made a decision where that matter is concerned. It is quite possible that we may take the decision to seek legislative amendments in respect of the Northern Territory The secretary was merely giving forward advice.
While I am on my feet, I will say that I think it is really good that, after 6 months of guerilla warfare by the trade unions, the member for Nhulunbuy, the shadow spokesman on education, finally has asked a question about the dispute. I would have thought it a matter of some public importance. All through last year, not one question was asked in the Assembly. The member for Nhulunbuy stood up ...
Members interjecting.
Page 1158
Mr HATTON: ... what was going on in the dispute ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Then he jumps up on radio and says: `I would solve the problem. I do not know how, but I would solve it'.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Let us look at the facts at the moment. The offer that was made late last year was a without-prejudice final offer. That was rejected by the union. The Commissioner for Public Employment had ...
Mr Bailey: They gave you their without-prejudice final offer.
Mr HATTON: Do not display your ignorance.
Mr Stirling: What has this to do with the secretary encouraging people to break the law? That was the question.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: The Commissioner for Public Employment has advised the AEU that all of the offers, with the exception of the 3% and 4% pay increase, have been withdrawn. That means we are back to square 1 as far as negotiations are concerned.
It took Chris Sharpe until 3.40 pm last Friday to ring my office and ask for a meeting. I said that I was happy to meet with him. They turned up ...
Mr Bailey: No, you had been refusing up to that point in time.
Mr HATTON: Rubbish! I advised publicly at 9 am that I would be prepared to meet with the union - 9 am.
Mr Bailey: After 2 months of refusing to.
Mr HATTON: No, that is not true. The fact is that we did meet, and we explored a series of matters in the course of that meeting. The fact that the offer was withdrawn and that we are back to square 1 does not mean that negotiations cannot continue.
Members interjecting.
Mr Stirling: While you are whipping up a public campaign against them! What sort of spirit of negotiation ...
Page 1159
Mr SPEAKER: Order! The member will please resume his seat. I have stood just about enough of the backchat from the opposition benches. I ask both the member for Nhulunbuy and the member for Wanguri to refrain from further interjection.
Mr HATTON: Mr Speaker, I make the simple point that it is the union that has been provocative for 6 months and that we have been restrained. If you poke somebody in the chest long enough and hard enough, eventually they will turn around and poke you in the chest in return. That is my simple response to the member for Nhulunbuy.
Let us place some facts on the table. The member for Nhulunbuy has been talking about the 15% pay increase in Western Australia. He does not say what the end result is in their salaries.
Mr Stirling: It puts them second from the top and leaves us second from the bottom. That is what the result is.
Mr HATTON: No, that is not actually true. I will table now a schedule of the salary scales of every state. That schedule incorporates our first-stage offer and the offers that have been made in every state to date, with the exception of South Australia. For the benefit for the member for Nhulunbuy, this morning the South Australian government made an offer of a composite 12% salary package. Even with that, it is still behind our offer to Northern Territory teachers.
Mr Stirling: But that is all right, is it?
Mr Bailey: We used to be the best in Australia.
Mr HATTON: Our salary scales are near the top in Australia, with our offer, and even with all those fancy offers that he is floating. At the end of the day, the question is how our salaries compare, how the changes compare. We are near the top. That is a fact. I table that schedule, Mr Speaker.
With regard to non-contact time, I note that, during the school week, all states have non-contact time for teachers. What they do not tell you is that currently those schools have fewer teachers for their numbers of kids than we have in the Northern Territory. Our teachers could take all the release time they liked, if they did not ask for extra resources, and they would still be ahead of the rest of Australia. We offered to provide resources, partially but substantially, to meet 2 hours release time.
Mr Stirling: Partially. You did nothing in the bigger primary schools, and you know it.
Mr HATTON: That is not true. In fact, we offered an hour a week per teacher. Get your facts right. An hour a week per teacher is 50% funding.
I have checked every school in the Territory. I have compared the numbers of staff and the numbers of students with the formula of every state. With the exception of, I think, one situation, in every case in the whole of the Territory, there are more teachers today in our
Page 1160
schools than in any state - and they already have the release time, all week. We are offering additional resources, and they say we are being unfair to them.
As further evidence, I table a document that describes average class sizes. That is how it comes out. We have fewer students per class ...
Members interjecting.
Mr HATTON: We are talking about national figures. There are more teachers for the number of students in every school in the Territory than there are in any state in Australia.
Mr Ede: That is not true.
Mr HATTON: I am saying that it is true. Are you accusing me of lying?
Mr Stirling: Including Aboriginal schools? What about the teacher ratio in community schools? This is nonsense!
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr HATTON: Even taking out our assistant teachers and leaving the assistant teachers in the interstate schools, we still have lower class sizes.
Mr Ede: Wrong!
Mr HATTON: Check your facts. I will get the statistics later.
Mr Stirling: There is a difference between teachers and ancillary staff.
Mr HATTON: We come down from national figures. It is 17.7 compared with 18.1, if you would like to know. That is a fact. We have many more assistant teachers in our schools as a proportion of our total teaching population than is the case interstate. They are somehow critical of us on that particular point. The proportion in our schools is greater ...
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr HATTON: ... we have the best non-teaching staff in schools in Australia, we have more teachers for the number of students than any state in Australia, and we are offering additional resources for release time. They can have as much release time as they like. The issue is the amount of additional resources they want for it, and that is where the dollars are.
Mr Stirling: It is not release time they want. It is planning and preparation time.
Mr HATTON: That is what it is about. They can have it ...
Mr Stirling: You are misrepresenting it.
Page 1161
Mr HATTON: No, I am not. That is the simple fact. I am happy to go further later, but the reality is that it is a damn good offer.
Ms Martin: But it is unfunded.
Mr HATTON: That is not true. To call $10m-worth of additional resources unfunded is a new twist. Clearly, the member for Fannie Bay does not know what `unfunded' means. The teachers have $3.1m a year extra beyond what every other public sector person received and they are not asked to give up anything - unlike other parts of the public sector which gave up some benefits to obtain additional benefits. The teachers have been asked to give up nothing. If that is `unfunded', the member has a different dictionary to mine.
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Last updated: 09 Aug 2016