Mr Bell - 1994-08-31
I refer the minister to my comments in the adjournment debate last night. I remind the minister that he wrongly, and indeed wrongfully, told the Police Association Conference that I had called for an independent inquiry beyond the internal police investigation into the fracas in the vicinity of Mt Liebig. I demand to know from the minister where and when he claims that I made that call. Does the minister accept that he was utterly reckless as to the truth in relation to my statements on this matter? Further, will he write to inform the Police Association that I made no such statement? The minister knows full well that I made no such call. Will he apologise to me and to this Assembly for lying to the Police Association Conference?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, that was a most dramatic procedure to adopt in asking a question but, under the circumstances, it deserves a comprehensive answer. As members will recall, there was a set of circumstances last week at Papunya which created ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I do not want to refer the minister to the Committee of Privileges for misleading the House, but could he at least get the location of the fracas correct.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order.
Mr MANZIE: It was in the Papunya area, although I believe Mt Liebig is closer. However, if the member for MacDonnell wants to perform for the entertainment of people, it may not be appropriate for me to continue to answer his question. If he wants to listen to the information, I suggest that he quieten down so that he can hear it.
Mr Bell: ... porky pies.
Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker, I request that you ask the member for MacDonnell to withdraw the imputation of lying because it is contrary to standing orders.
Mr SPEAKER: I ask the member to withdraw.
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I am quite happy to move a substantive motion when the minister ...
Mr Manzie: Go for it!
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no room for debate. I have asked the member to withdraw.
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I withdraw unreservedly.
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Mr MANZIE: Thank you.
I will come to the set of circumstances that gave rise to this question because it needs some clarification. After this incident - and, I believe, after the ABC aired some television footage which I did not see - an ABC reporter by the name of Kate Carter contacted me last Saturday morning. She asked me whether I would like to comment on calls for an inquiry into the incident that involved police and Aboriginal people in the Mt Liebig area. Because I had no knowledge of the matter, I asked her who had called for an inquiry. Her reply was that Mr Charles Perkins and Mr Neil Bell had called for an inquiry. I was asked then whether I would like to comment on that call for an inquiry, and I did make some comments on the radio.
On the following Monday, I opened the Police Association Conference which I attended in company with the Leader of the Opposition. I made some comments in my opening speech which I will quote verbatim to refresh the Leader of the Opposition's memory. The member for MacDonnell can listen very clearly to them so that he understands what was said. I quote:
I will just pause here to reflect on circumstances surrounding the incident last week involving an attack on police from Papunya. I was very disappointed to be told by a reporter
from ABC Radio on Saturday, who was seeking comment from me, that Charles Perkins and ALP member, Neil Bell, had called for an independent inquiry into the circumstances
of the attack. Obviously, there are circumstances when an independent inquiry into an incident is warranted, and politicians most certainly havea duty to call for such an inquiry, but
to do so every time police are attacked is not a justification. The integrity of our investigation processes have never been found wanting and, as we are all aware, politicians
included, the independent Ombudsman has a role to review such procedures.
I would ask Brian Ede to personally request the member for MacDonnell to wait until the process is completed before looking for a headline at the expense of 2 young Territorians who
risked their lives on behalf of the community they serve.
I refer now to a television transcript that I obtained ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The minister is taking advantage of a public broadcast to republish highly defamatory matter. That is disgraceful!
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I would like the minister to be directed in such a way as to make it quite clear, to this Assembly and to people listening to the broadcast, that he is apologising for having said that.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! As I understand it, the minister is answering your question. There is no point of order.
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Mr MANZIE: The member for MacDonnell asked a question and I am attempting to provide the information. He does not know what I will say. It may well make him feel much better, but he does not have the courtesy even to wait for the reply.
I refer to the transcript of an ABC television evening news report at 7 pm in relation to calls for an inquiry into the Papunya incident on Friday, 26 August. The introduction to the report was:
Calls today for an independent inquiry into a drunken brawl at a remote community west of Alice Springs. Questions continue over the hospitalisation of 2 community members after
claims they were hit by police bullets. While the community itself remains quiet, politicians and Aboriginal leaders say they want answers. Rose Crane reports.
The reporter then said:
The truth about what happened near this remote community on Tuesday night is still not clear, according to some following the incident in Alice Springs.
Mr Perkins then said:
Just exactly what is the true story? What did happen out there? Were, in fact, 2 Aboriginal people shot? Are they in fact in hospital through gunshot wounds?
The reporter said:
The police continue to say no. Maintaining their line from yesterday's press conference, they have no evidence to suggest the wounds are gunshot injuries. While the members of the
community involved continue to say nothing publicly, Charles Perkins wants a full inquiry independent of the police, while Papunya's parliamentary member, Neil Bell, is too looking for
answers.
That was the quality of the broadcast. Obviously ...
Mr Bell interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: No, I did not hear that, but that comment was made by the ABC. The report went on to quote the member for MacDonnell in relation to a letter that he had written to me and one that I had written to him. That is another issue that will be dealt with at another time. The point is that the ABC asked me about an inquiry. When I spoke to the association ...
Mr Bell interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: The ABC asked me for a comment on an allegation that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry. Quite rightly, I made quite a mild comment. At the opening of the Police Association Conference, I made the point that I had been informed by the
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ABC. When I spoke to the association members, I did not actually accuse the member for MacDonnell of calling for an inquiry, but I made a point of asking the Leader of the Opposition to ask him to refrain ...
Members interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: I made the point that I had been asked ...
Members interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: What I am doing is setting the scene ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr MANZIE: Those are the circumstances. That counters the member for MacDonnell's claim that I deliberately lied to members of the association. Quite obviously, that is not the case given what was actually said. That clears up one point.
I make it very clear that I am very pleased to hear that, in fact, the member for MacDonnell did not call for an inquiry. I have no problem in apologising to him for any inferences that I may have made in the belief that he would call for an inquiry, and I do so. Not only that, I will write a note to the Police Association to point out the circumstances as to why I made a comment to the association. The members heard it. I made no claim that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry but, rather, that a reporter had reported that to me. I asked the Leader of the Opposition to ask the member for MacDonnell to calm down and not create headlines until the matter was over. I intend to write to the association to say that any inference I made that indicated that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry was, in fact, incorrect. I have no problems with that.
Nevertheless, I ask the member for MacDonnell to curb his colourful language to ensure that the allegations that he has made in regard to these kinds of incidents are not multiplied by 100%. It is a simple situation to resolve. If he had made the comment when ABC television intimated on Friday night that he and Charles Perkins had called for an inquiry, probably the ABC would never have even raised the matter with me. He cannot be quiet when he thinks that it is to his advantage, but he then jumps up and down when he believes it is to his disadvantage.
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ANSWER
Mr Speaker, that was a most dramatic procedure to adopt in asking a question but, under the circumstances, it deserves a comprehensive answer. As members will recall, there was a set of circumstances last week at Papunya which created ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! I do not want to refer the minister to the Committee of Privileges for misleading the House, but could he at least get the location of the fracas correct.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order.
Mr MANZIE: It was in the Papunya area, although I believe Mt Liebig is closer. However, if the member for MacDonnell wants to perform for the entertainment of people, it may not be appropriate for me to continue to answer his question. If he wants to listen to the information, I suggest that he quieten down so that he can hear it.
Mr Bell: ... porky pies.
Mr MANZIE: Mr Speaker, I request that you ask the member for MacDonnell to withdraw the imputation of lying because it is contrary to standing orders.
Mr SPEAKER: I ask the member to withdraw.
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I am quite happy to move a substantive motion when the minister ...
Mr Manzie: Go for it!
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no room for debate. I have asked the member to withdraw.
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I withdraw unreservedly.
Page 120
Mr MANZIE: Thank you.
I will come to the set of circumstances that gave rise to this question because it needs some clarification. After this incident - and, I believe, after the ABC aired some television footage which I did not see - an ABC reporter by the name of Kate Carter contacted me last Saturday morning. She asked me whether I would like to comment on calls for an inquiry into the incident that involved police and Aboriginal people in the Mt Liebig area. Because I had no knowledge of the matter, I asked her who had called for an inquiry. Her reply was that Mr Charles Perkins and Mr Neil Bell had called for an inquiry. I was asked then whether I would like to comment on that call for an inquiry, and I did make some comments on the radio.
On the following Monday, I opened the Police Association Conference which I attended in company with the Leader of the Opposition. I made some comments in my opening speech which I will quote verbatim to refresh the Leader of the Opposition's memory. The member for MacDonnell can listen very clearly to them so that he understands what was said. I quote:
I will just pause here to reflect on circumstances surrounding the incident last week involving an attack on police from Papunya. I was very disappointed to be told by a reporter
from ABC Radio on Saturday, who was seeking comment from me, that Charles Perkins and ALP member, Neil Bell, had called for an independent inquiry into the circumstances
of the attack. Obviously, there are circumstances when an independent inquiry into an incident is warranted, and politicians most certainly havea duty to call for such an inquiry, but
to do so every time police are attacked is not a justification. The integrity of our investigation processes have never been found wanting and, as we are all aware, politicians
included, the independent Ombudsman has a role to review such procedures.
I would ask Brian Ede to personally request the member for MacDonnell to wait until the process is completed before looking for a headline at the expense of 2 young Territorians who
risked their lives on behalf of the community they serve.
I refer now to a television transcript that I obtained ...
Mr BELL: A point of order, Mr Speaker! The minister is taking advantage of a public broadcast to republish highly defamatory matter. That is disgraceful!
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BELL: Mr Speaker, I would like the minister to be directed in such a way as to make it quite clear, to this Assembly and to people listening to the broadcast, that he is apologising for having said that.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! As I understand it, the minister is answering your question. There is no point of order.
Page 121
Mr MANZIE: The member for MacDonnell asked a question and I am attempting to provide the information. He does not know what I will say. It may well make him feel much better, but he does not have the courtesy even to wait for the reply.
I refer to the transcript of an ABC television evening news report at 7 pm in relation to calls for an inquiry into the Papunya incident on Friday, 26 August. The introduction to the report was:
Calls today for an independent inquiry into a drunken brawl at a remote community west of Alice Springs. Questions continue over the hospitalisation of 2 community members after
claims they were hit by police bullets. While the community itself remains quiet, politicians and Aboriginal leaders say they want answers. Rose Crane reports.
The reporter then said:
The truth about what happened near this remote community on Tuesday night is still not clear, according to some following the incident in Alice Springs.
Mr Perkins then said:
Just exactly what is the true story? What did happen out there? Were, in fact, 2 Aboriginal people shot? Are they in fact in hospital through gunshot wounds?
The reporter said:
The police continue to say no. Maintaining their line from yesterday's press conference, they have no evidence to suggest the wounds are gunshot injuries. While the members of the
community involved continue to say nothing publicly, Charles Perkins wants a full inquiry independent of the police, while Papunya's parliamentary member, Neil Bell, is too looking for
answers.
That was the quality of the broadcast. Obviously ...
Mr Bell interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: No, I did not hear that, but that comment was made by the ABC. The report went on to quote the member for MacDonnell in relation to a letter that he had written to me and one that I had written to him. That is another issue that will be dealt with at another time. The point is that the ABC asked me about an inquiry. When I spoke to the association ...
Mr Bell interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: The ABC asked me for a comment on an allegation that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry. Quite rightly, I made quite a mild comment. At the opening of the Police Association Conference, I made the point that I had been informed by the
Page 122
ABC. When I spoke to the association members, I did not actually accuse the member for MacDonnell of calling for an inquiry, but I made a point of asking the Leader of the Opposition to ask him to refrain ...
Members interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: I made the point that I had been asked ...
Members interjecting.
Mr MANZIE: What I am doing is setting the scene ...
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr MANZIE: Those are the circumstances. That counters the member for MacDonnell's claim that I deliberately lied to members of the association. Quite obviously, that is not the case given what was actually said. That clears up one point.
I make it very clear that I am very pleased to hear that, in fact, the member for MacDonnell did not call for an inquiry. I have no problem in apologising to him for any inferences that I may have made in the belief that he would call for an inquiry, and I do so. Not only that, I will write a note to the Police Association to point out the circumstances as to why I made a comment to the association. The members heard it. I made no claim that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry but, rather, that a reporter had reported that to me. I asked the Leader of the Opposition to ask the member for MacDonnell to calm down and not create headlines until the matter was over. I intend to write to the association to say that any inference I made that indicated that the member for MacDonnell had called for an inquiry was, in fact, incorrect. I have no problems with that.
Nevertheless, I ask the member for MacDonnell to curb his colourful language to ensure that the allegations that he has made in regard to these kinds of incidents are not multiplied by 100%. It is a simple situation to resolve. If he had made the comment when ABC television intimated on Friday night that he and Charles Perkins had called for an inquiry, probably the ABC would never have even raised the matter with me. He cannot be quiet when he thinks that it is to his advantage, but he then jumps up and down when he believes it is to his disadvantage.
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Last updated: 09 Aug 2016