Mr HENDERSON - 2000-10-11
Saturday’s NT News said you were requesting a report on the fact that Best Practice Skills, a company of which the member for Nightcliff is a director, is in receipt of government work providing casual nursing staff to Alice Springs Hospital and that this work had not gone out to public tender.
Chief Minister, as a result of your inquiries have you also been advised that the company which is the agent for Best Practice Skills in Alice Springs, Future Directions Consultants P/L, has as a director - one John Elferink, CLP MLA for Macdonnell?
The bottom line, Chief Minster, is that two members of your backbench are profiting from government business that has not gone to public tender. Are you going to condone this appalling state of affairs and allow this cosy deal to continue or will you immediately instruct that the business of the casual nurse enlisters at Alice Springs Hospital goes to public tender?
ANSWER
The member made an allegation - was is profit or profit unfairly? What was your statement? Read it out again.
Mr Henderson: Profiting from government business.
Mr BURKE: Profiting from government business is the allegation and also the allegation that somehow I would not be aware that Mr John Elferink was a director of an Alice Springs company. Well, it is on the pecuniary record, the statement of members’ interests. So let’s get that absolutely straight right from the start. If the member for Macdonnell, and I have spoken to the member for Macdonnell on this issue and the member for Nightcliff, wanted to hide anything firstly he would not have been up-front in naming himself as a director of that company. He would not, as others on that side of the House would do, hide behind the member of the family in a DUI or something like that. He goes straight up. He does not hide behind his wife. He names himself.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order on both sides. A question has been asked; let’s hear the answer.
Mr BURKE: He first of all, and again, let’s get it absolutely clear, he does not hide behind his wife as a director; he makes sure he is up their right up front so everyone knows and it is on the members’ pecuniary interest form. That is the first thing.
Second thing, the allegation somehow surrounds the issue that because there were no formal contracts in place that somehow this company profited. From what I understand with the allegation, frankly, is that somehow because Alice Springs Hospital did not have a formal contract in place as Royal Darwin Hospital has, that somehow this particular company of which the member for Macdonnell has an interest and, by default, I think the member for Nightcliff also has an interest is somehow profiting unfairly from government business.
Now if we …
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr BURKE: It is very difficult, Mr Speaker. We talk about wanting answers but it is very difficult to get an answer out when there is constant interjection.
Now if we take that logic to its true extension, the member for Fannie Bay’s partner works in a legal firm, which gains work from government. Now the logic …
Ms MARTIN: Point of Order, Mr Speaker! This is nothing to do with it, and the Chief Minister is inaccurate in his first point. So I would be very careful if I was the Chief Minister. He is not a partner in a law firm, so just pull your head in.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I could not rule that there was a point of order, because I cannot be the judge of that. But if you have a view that you have been misstated or that you have been unfairly treated, you can come to me on that matter.
Mr BURKE: Mr Speaker, we need to get the allegation in its context, and the logical extension of the allegation of the opposition is that the member for Fannie Bay’s partner is in a similar position, whereby his firm profits from work that comes from government from time to time. If you wanted to ensure this never occurred, any person who has had a relationship with a member of parliament would not be able to access government work at any time. Now that is plainly ludicrous. What could be a problem is if there were special advantage given to a member’s firm that had some availability to get government work.
I have spoken to the members concerned. I have a report from the minister for health. I will refer the question to him shortly to deal with it in detail. But quickly, essentially, in Alice Springs Hospital there is a casual arrangement with about 18 firms in the Northern Territory …
A member interjecting.
Mr BURKE: Will you listen. These are serious allegations you make, and you refuse to listen.
The Alice Springs Hospital has an arrangement to recruit directly to its hospital and seeks that recruitment from time to time from private companies, 18 in fact, all around Australia including the Northern Territory. They will take staff who are qualified from where ever they can get them, in the same way that we will outsource work when we have a particular thrust of work to legal firms who may not have the formal contract because of the workload at the time. In the same way that we might put equipment out to work to organisations that don’t have a formal tender with government.
The real issue is whether or not there should be any ability for any member of parliament to have any interest in any business which might get some work from government from time to time. Now, no parliament in Australia harnesses its backbenchers in that regard, and certainly if I were to consider that, I would firstly consider it in the context of what other parliaments do, and secondly, I really believe that kind of conflict would only arise with a minister and then you would have to look at the particular situation.
The real issue is that there is no advantage to that particular firm given by Alice Springs Hospital. The hospital staff, Territory Health Services, are firm in that regard, and I intend to take no action on this particular issue. In the same way, I don’t intend to refuse government work to the firm of which the partner of the member for Fannie Bay works. I refer the details of the contractual arrangements to the minister for health.
Mr SPEAKER: I am prepared to hear from the minister for health. It is a little unusual.
Mr DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think this matter can be quickly clarified by presenting a couple of facts. In the first place, there is no contract with one supplier. The matters relating to attracting nurses to Alice Springs has been difficult for government as most people who have been watching this issue would know. In Alice Springs only a couple of weeks ago, I said on radio that I would leave no stone unturned in attempting to attract qualified staff to Alice Springs. There are some 19 firms that are approached by Territory Health Services including this one. It is a legitimate company. We are pursuing a variety of options to see how we can attract staff to Alice Springs, and we do it with mixed success given that there are something like 5000 nurses short around Australia.
We make no apology. By the way, this is a management issue, it is not something that normally would come to political attention because it is straight up and down a matter of managers going out and attempting to recruit staff from agencies that hold themselves up as having that ability. So the allegation is that somehow this is something that is not available to other suppliers – false. Those people who wish to come to the Alice Springs Hospital and show that their services are capable of recruiting nurses, we are happy to hear from them. We will take allcomers.
Members interjecting.
Mr DUNHAM: The member for Arnhem wants me to tell him about the casual nurses. I would suggest that he hasn’t a clue what he is talking about, absolutely has not got a clue. But if he is talking about the fact that there are some nurses who choose to be casual nurses and operate from a casual list, there are some nurses who choose for their lifestyle, family structure or whatever to offer their services on a casual basis, we welcome them also because we can understand that some people would prefer to work on hours that suit their domestic circumstances. So there are mechanisms for people to offer themselves as casual employees.
Now, Best Practice Skills Employment Agency offers this service. They have come to us and said: ‘We are able to offer you a list of nurses who you are able to ring and they may come on the basis of a short term or an unpredictable roster and provide services within your hospital and they are trained’. And we have said: ‘Good on you. Thank you.’ Now, if the member for Arnhem wishes to set up a business like this, I am sure we would deal with him, incompetent and all as he is. But the fact of the matter is that there is some inference that Best Practice Skills constructing such a list of casual nurses has afforded them an opportunity that is not available to others. Not true. It is a service they are offering, it is a service we will avail ourselves of.
I wish to table a memorandum, and I will read it to honourable members because it comes from the Director of Nursing Services in Alice Springs and it refers to this issue. I will table it for the benefit of honourable members. This is to all nursing staff:
You may be aware a new employment agency has commenced operation in Alice Springs and in October will be offering casual employment for RNs, ENs and PSAs. A letter from Best Practice Skills of 15 September may have resulted in some misunderstanding.
That is obvious because the people opposite have absolutely no notion of this thing.
I wish to make it very clear to staff that it is their own choice as to whether they sign up with BPS. The Alice Springs Hospital casual list is not being closed down or transferred, it will remain in existence for staff who choose to stay with this option. Staff are reminded that if they wish to join the agency then just as with any other outside employment they will need to apply to the relevant Nursing Director and complete an application to engage in outside employment.
Signed Bronwyn Taylor.
Chief Minister, as a result of your inquiries have you also been advised that the company which is the agent for Best Practice Skills in Alice Springs, Future Directions Consultants P/L, has as a director - one John Elferink, CLP MLA for Macdonnell?
The bottom line, Chief Minster, is that two members of your backbench are profiting from government business that has not gone to public tender. Are you going to condone this appalling state of affairs and allow this cosy deal to continue or will you immediately instruct that the business of the casual nurse enlisters at Alice Springs Hospital goes to public tender?
ANSWER
The member made an allegation - was is profit or profit unfairly? What was your statement? Read it out again.
Mr Henderson: Profiting from government business.
Mr BURKE: Profiting from government business is the allegation and also the allegation that somehow I would not be aware that Mr John Elferink was a director of an Alice Springs company. Well, it is on the pecuniary record, the statement of members’ interests. So let’s get that absolutely straight right from the start. If the member for Macdonnell, and I have spoken to the member for Macdonnell on this issue and the member for Nightcliff, wanted to hide anything firstly he would not have been up-front in naming himself as a director of that company. He would not, as others on that side of the House would do, hide behind the member of the family in a DUI or something like that. He goes straight up. He does not hide behind his wife. He names himself.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order on both sides. A question has been asked; let’s hear the answer.
Mr BURKE: He first of all, and again, let’s get it absolutely clear, he does not hide behind his wife as a director; he makes sure he is up their right up front so everyone knows and it is on the members’ pecuniary interest form. That is the first thing.
Second thing, the allegation somehow surrounds the issue that because there were no formal contracts in place that somehow this company profited. From what I understand with the allegation, frankly, is that somehow because Alice Springs Hospital did not have a formal contract in place as Royal Darwin Hospital has, that somehow this particular company of which the member for Macdonnell has an interest and, by default, I think the member for Nightcliff also has an interest is somehow profiting unfairly from government business.
Now if we …
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Order!
Mr BURKE: It is very difficult, Mr Speaker. We talk about wanting answers but it is very difficult to get an answer out when there is constant interjection.
Now if we take that logic to its true extension, the member for Fannie Bay’s partner works in a legal firm, which gains work from government. Now the logic …
Ms MARTIN: Point of Order, Mr Speaker! This is nothing to do with it, and the Chief Minister is inaccurate in his first point. So I would be very careful if I was the Chief Minister. He is not a partner in a law firm, so just pull your head in.
Members interjecting.
Mr SPEAKER: Order! I could not rule that there was a point of order, because I cannot be the judge of that. But if you have a view that you have been misstated or that you have been unfairly treated, you can come to me on that matter.
Mr BURKE: Mr Speaker, we need to get the allegation in its context, and the logical extension of the allegation of the opposition is that the member for Fannie Bay’s partner is in a similar position, whereby his firm profits from work that comes from government from time to time. If you wanted to ensure this never occurred, any person who has had a relationship with a member of parliament would not be able to access government work at any time. Now that is plainly ludicrous. What could be a problem is if there were special advantage given to a member’s firm that had some availability to get government work.
I have spoken to the members concerned. I have a report from the minister for health. I will refer the question to him shortly to deal with it in detail. But quickly, essentially, in Alice Springs Hospital there is a casual arrangement with about 18 firms in the Northern Territory …
A member interjecting.
Mr BURKE: Will you listen. These are serious allegations you make, and you refuse to listen.
The Alice Springs Hospital has an arrangement to recruit directly to its hospital and seeks that recruitment from time to time from private companies, 18 in fact, all around Australia including the Northern Territory. They will take staff who are qualified from where ever they can get them, in the same way that we will outsource work when we have a particular thrust of work to legal firms who may not have the formal contract because of the workload at the time. In the same way that we might put equipment out to work to organisations that don’t have a formal tender with government.
The real issue is whether or not there should be any ability for any member of parliament to have any interest in any business which might get some work from government from time to time. Now, no parliament in Australia harnesses its backbenchers in that regard, and certainly if I were to consider that, I would firstly consider it in the context of what other parliaments do, and secondly, I really believe that kind of conflict would only arise with a minister and then you would have to look at the particular situation.
The real issue is that there is no advantage to that particular firm given by Alice Springs Hospital. The hospital staff, Territory Health Services, are firm in that regard, and I intend to take no action on this particular issue. In the same way, I don’t intend to refuse government work to the firm of which the partner of the member for Fannie Bay works. I refer the details of the contractual arrangements to the minister for health.
Mr SPEAKER: I am prepared to hear from the minister for health. It is a little unusual.
Mr DUNHAM: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think this matter can be quickly clarified by presenting a couple of facts. In the first place, there is no contract with one supplier. The matters relating to attracting nurses to Alice Springs has been difficult for government as most people who have been watching this issue would know. In Alice Springs only a couple of weeks ago, I said on radio that I would leave no stone unturned in attempting to attract qualified staff to Alice Springs. There are some 19 firms that are approached by Territory Health Services including this one. It is a legitimate company. We are pursuing a variety of options to see how we can attract staff to Alice Springs, and we do it with mixed success given that there are something like 5000 nurses short around Australia.
We make no apology. By the way, this is a management issue, it is not something that normally would come to political attention because it is straight up and down a matter of managers going out and attempting to recruit staff from agencies that hold themselves up as having that ability. So the allegation is that somehow this is something that is not available to other suppliers – false. Those people who wish to come to the Alice Springs Hospital and show that their services are capable of recruiting nurses, we are happy to hear from them. We will take allcomers.
Members interjecting.
Mr DUNHAM: The member for Arnhem wants me to tell him about the casual nurses. I would suggest that he hasn’t a clue what he is talking about, absolutely has not got a clue. But if he is talking about the fact that there are some nurses who choose to be casual nurses and operate from a casual list, there are some nurses who choose for their lifestyle, family structure or whatever to offer their services on a casual basis, we welcome them also because we can understand that some people would prefer to work on hours that suit their domestic circumstances. So there are mechanisms for people to offer themselves as casual employees.
Now, Best Practice Skills Employment Agency offers this service. They have come to us and said: ‘We are able to offer you a list of nurses who you are able to ring and they may come on the basis of a short term or an unpredictable roster and provide services within your hospital and they are trained’. And we have said: ‘Good on you. Thank you.’ Now, if the member for Arnhem wishes to set up a business like this, I am sure we would deal with him, incompetent and all as he is. But the fact of the matter is that there is some inference that Best Practice Skills constructing such a list of casual nurses has afforded them an opportunity that is not available to others. Not true. It is a service they are offering, it is a service we will avail ourselves of.
I wish to table a memorandum, and I will read it to honourable members because it comes from the Director of Nursing Services in Alice Springs and it refers to this issue. I will table it for the benefit of honourable members. This is to all nursing staff:
You may be aware a new employment agency has commenced operation in Alice Springs and in October will be offering casual employment for RNs, ENs and PSAs. A letter from Best Practice Skills of 15 September may have resulted in some misunderstanding.
That is obvious because the people opposite have absolutely no notion of this thing.
I wish to make it very clear to staff that it is their own choice as to whether they sign up with BPS. The Alice Springs Hospital casual list is not being closed down or transferred, it will remain in existence for staff who choose to stay with this option. Staff are reminded that if they wish to join the agency then just as with any other outside employment they will need to apply to the relevant Nursing Director and complete an application to engage in outside employment.
Signed Bronwyn Taylor.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016