Ms MARTIN - 2000-11-30
Independent power expert, Dr Robert Booth, described the purchase of Paul Everingham’s transmission line as ‘the four rip-offs’: Once when the deal was done, with the over-inflated level of front-end costs; the second over the period of financing, with excessive charges; the third with a very expensive buy-out settlement arrangement; and the fourth rip-off which now threatens through the incorporation of this inflated purchase price and the asset base for the transmission line in the forthcoming PAWA access arrangement, with inevitably a flow-on to tariffs. Will the Chief Minister now confirm that Territorians will be paying for Porky’s line four times over?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I will refer that question to the Treasurer, who will answer it in detail. But before I do, I point out that a large number of young Territorians are sitting in the Chamber this morning watching this debate. I wonder what those young Territorians would be thinking today if Darwin and Katherine were powered …
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr BURKE: No, listen. Will you please listen? I wonder what they would think today, if they study environmental issues, if Darwin to Katherine were powered by stinking, coal-belching power stacks. Because a visionary CLP government …
Dr Toyne interjecting.
Mr BURKE: Oh, the scholar from Stuart is interjecting - the only scholar who has ever come from that electorate, I might add.
In essence, the story of power generation in the Northern Territory is a very good one. It is very sad that Labor will muckrake and use any misleading line they can to try and turn what is an amazing story …
Ms Martin: Is that what Dr Robert Booth is - a muckraker?
Mr BURKE: I will get to Dr Robert Booth in a second.
A visionary decision was made by a Territory government 13 years ago to move to gas generation. A tiny jurisdiction set out to build an 1800 km …
Ms Martin: Paid through the nose.
Mr BURKE: Oh, won’t you be quiet? If we could have a raffle, I would rather one of the children came down here and sat in that seat. I am sure I would get a better response. I will swap you gladly and be happy to debate with them all day, because they will responsibly listen to the answer.
A small jurisdiction, a tiny jurisdiction …
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Mr Speaker! That question was very specific. The Chief Minister, in trying to demonstrate to young Territorians, has not answered anything. I suggest he answer the question.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. As I have indicated many times, I have no capacity to direct a minister how to answer a question. The answer to date has been relevant, in my view.
Mr BURKE: It is important to note that a tiny jurisdiction 13 years ago, and still with only 200 000 people today, with a very limited taxation base, made a visionary decision to move to gas-fired generation. It built a gas pipeline over 1800 km from Alice Springs to Darwin, and also put in a transmission line from Darwin to Katherine in order to optimise the power generation capabilities of the two generators in those two locations to feed the evolving mining industry. The story overall is a good one.
The Leader of the Opposition refers to some expert who does not live in the Northern Territory …
Ms Martin: ‘Some expert’!
Mr BURKE: Listen, it is important. He does not live in the Northern Territory, and I imagine, apart from some news reports, he has made his analysis from some faraway place.
I have a suggestion. We have a person, a member of the Power and Water Authority board, whose name is Mr Mike Vertigan. This is the man who moved the hydroelectric generating authority in Tasmania and fully privatised that system. We brought him on to the Power and Water Authority because of his expertise in not only power generation but also operating in a deregulated department. If you want to get some kind of assessment of how the Northern Territory conducts business and whether or not our purchase of this line was a necessary decision, why don’t you ask him? Why don’t you ask someone who is specifically there to help and advise? He is the kind of man who, I imagine, would give a very independent decision.
I imagine he would say what we are trying to say to Territorians and have said consistently - given the decisions that were taken 13 years ago, the factors existing when the review came into place and the opportunity for the Northern Territory to purchase the line, PAWA now consists of hard and strategic assets, one of which is that powerline. I will shortly talk about the massive deregulated, privatised, competitive market we will be in, with abundant gas for the five generators that are outside of government ownership. It is a good decision in every respect, and I wish we could just get on with the real business of developing this Territory instead of muckraking.
Mr REED (Treasurer): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to clarify a few points made by Mr Booth. First of all, I want to point out the deceitfulness of the Leader of the Opposition, who claimed that Mr Booth said the purchase of the line would be reflected in power costs.
Mr Stirling: Yep.
Mr REED: We have confirmation of that deceit. I thank the Deputy Leader, the mouth, for putting his boss in it.
This was Mr Booth on ABC this morning:
Basically in a set of rules that set the price and conditions for access in future to the Territory’s transmission and distribution system the $43m price - might [‘might’, not ‘would’] find its way in as the accepted asset value and result in increased electricity charges to Territorians.
Little Miss Deceit over here has done it again. She has priors for this. She does it regularly. It is about time people started to wake up to it. She cannot be trusted because she continually twists the facts to suit herself.
I repeat that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader were offered briefings to be able to find out the truth about this. Yesterday they ran out of steam on this issue. They ran out of steam on it because there is nothing left in it for them to pursue. The only reason they brought it up today is because Mr Booth has come up with some more suggestions for them to follow.
Now let’s have a look at what Mr Booth said. He made some specific mention this morning of interest payments, but he did not happen to mention that the interest payments would be affected by the fact that for most of the early years of this project, under a Labor government, interest rates were nudging 20%. He has obviously not factored in those exceedingly high interest rates which the business community remember but the lot opposite conveniently forget, because it was their Labor mates who caused the resulting high costs. That is why the infrastructure is largely like it is, as has been explained in my statement on Tuesday.
Ms Martin interjecting.
Mr REED: The Leader of the Opposition continues to interject. She does not want the people listening or the people in the gallery to hear the facts.
In terms of the regulatory regime, the Utilities Commissioner will determine that. We have given a commitment, both myself and the Minister for Essential Services, that that cost will not be reflected in electricity charges. Can I give you another reason why it won’t? The Utilities Commissioner, I dare say, is going to take into account that the Power and Water Authority - and this was not acknowledged by Dr Booth - will now be deriving an income from this line from anyone who uses it. Obviously NT Power is going to be a customer, so they are going to be getting a return on their asset. In addition to that …
Members interjecting.
Mr REED: You do not like the positive side of the argument, do you?
Mr Stirling: Tell us how much. How long is it going to take to knock off $43m?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr PALMER: A point of order, Mr Speaker! This side of the House is heartily sick of the continued interjections, especially from the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I am sure the listening audience are heartily sick of it. I am sure the people in the gallery are heartily sick of it. I ask you to take some action.
Mr SPEAKER: I will decide when action needs to be taken. I have taken action to date in asking them to remain silent. I ask again that members of the opposition refrain from unnecessary interjection. You continually harp on an individual question and keep throwing it across. It is disruptive and it certainly does not help Question Time. We would get through considerably more questions during Question Time if you refrained from so much inane interjection.
Mr REED: Dr Booth - I do not know his credentials - lives a long way away. He might have some experience that is relevant, but he clearly is not aware of the circumstances that had to be taken into account in relation to this particular matter. There are important historical aspects that cannot be ignored. They were detailed …
Mr Stirling: ‘Innovative technology’ that had been used 40 years earlier.
Mr SPEAKER: The member for Nhulunbuy has a very short memory, as well as a very loud voice. I asked you to refrain from interjection.
Mr REED: I ask he show a bit of respect to the school kids in the gallery. They are future Territorians. One day they might be sitting in his spot. He should show a bit more respect …
Ms Martin: They are Territorians now!
MrREED: They are future Territorians in reference to sitting in his job. You have no idea. You sit there and smirk now, making a fool of yourself. Have a bit of respect for the students and show them that you have the ability to do your job.
I want to make another point in relation to the comments made by Dr Booth. He is clearly not aware of the full circumstances that relate to this particular matter. The opposition will obviously be looking to him for some leadership to be able to pursue this matter because they have run down the blind burrows themselves and got nowhere and won’t get anywhere. They won’t accept a full briefing on it because they do not want to get anywhere. They know that will disprove their ability to continue the case in the way that they have.
Dr Booth said this morning:
The Territory government some time ago submitted a proposal to the National Competition Council asking them to certify an access regime and it was refused.
It was not refused. The government continues to negotiate over the access agreement with the National Competition Council. A senior member of the Competition Council was in the Chief Minister’s office only a couple of weeks ago. The Chief Minister and I were party to discussions with him and they are of the view that these matters can be resolved. In terms of where we have come from with the regulatory regime, he was very comfortable with the way the Northern Territory government has been progressing those matters. He stated quite clearly that they were very satisfied with the attitude of the Territory government toward resolving competition policy regimes, and that included the regulatory regime for access to the electricity network.
Our regime has not been refused. There are some outstanding issues on which we continue to provide information to the Competition Council, and they will be resolved. I point that out because clearly Dr Booth, as professional and knowledgeable as he might be on matters wherever he comes from – Perth - is not too au fait with what is going on in the Territory.
I again give Territorians an assurance that the cost of this line will not be reflected in their electricity charges.
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, I will refer that question to the Treasurer, who will answer it in detail. But before I do, I point out that a large number of young Territorians are sitting in the Chamber this morning watching this debate. I wonder what those young Territorians would be thinking today if Darwin and Katherine were powered …
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr BURKE: No, listen. Will you please listen? I wonder what they would think today, if they study environmental issues, if Darwin to Katherine were powered by stinking, coal-belching power stacks. Because a visionary CLP government …
Dr Toyne interjecting.
Mr BURKE: Oh, the scholar from Stuart is interjecting - the only scholar who has ever come from that electorate, I might add.
In essence, the story of power generation in the Northern Territory is a very good one. It is very sad that Labor will muckrake and use any misleading line they can to try and turn what is an amazing story …
Ms Martin: Is that what Dr Robert Booth is - a muckraker?
Mr BURKE: I will get to Dr Robert Booth in a second.
A visionary decision was made by a Territory government 13 years ago to move to gas generation. A tiny jurisdiction set out to build an 1800 km …
Ms Martin: Paid through the nose.
Mr BURKE: Oh, won’t you be quiet? If we could have a raffle, I would rather one of the children came down here and sat in that seat. I am sure I would get a better response. I will swap you gladly and be happy to debate with them all day, because they will responsibly listen to the answer.
A small jurisdiction, a tiny jurisdiction …
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Mr Speaker! That question was very specific. The Chief Minister, in trying to demonstrate to young Territorians, has not answered anything. I suggest he answer the question.
Mr SPEAKER: There is no point of order. As I have indicated many times, I have no capacity to direct a minister how to answer a question. The answer to date has been relevant, in my view.
Mr BURKE: It is important to note that a tiny jurisdiction 13 years ago, and still with only 200 000 people today, with a very limited taxation base, made a visionary decision to move to gas-fired generation. It built a gas pipeline over 1800 km from Alice Springs to Darwin, and also put in a transmission line from Darwin to Katherine in order to optimise the power generation capabilities of the two generators in those two locations to feed the evolving mining industry. The story overall is a good one.
The Leader of the Opposition refers to some expert who does not live in the Northern Territory …
Ms Martin: ‘Some expert’!
Mr BURKE: Listen, it is important. He does not live in the Northern Territory, and I imagine, apart from some news reports, he has made his analysis from some faraway place.
I have a suggestion. We have a person, a member of the Power and Water Authority board, whose name is Mr Mike Vertigan. This is the man who moved the hydroelectric generating authority in Tasmania and fully privatised that system. We brought him on to the Power and Water Authority because of his expertise in not only power generation but also operating in a deregulated department. If you want to get some kind of assessment of how the Northern Territory conducts business and whether or not our purchase of this line was a necessary decision, why don’t you ask him? Why don’t you ask someone who is specifically there to help and advise? He is the kind of man who, I imagine, would give a very independent decision.
I imagine he would say what we are trying to say to Territorians and have said consistently - given the decisions that were taken 13 years ago, the factors existing when the review came into place and the opportunity for the Northern Territory to purchase the line, PAWA now consists of hard and strategic assets, one of which is that powerline. I will shortly talk about the massive deregulated, privatised, competitive market we will be in, with abundant gas for the five generators that are outside of government ownership. It is a good decision in every respect, and I wish we could just get on with the real business of developing this Territory instead of muckraking.
Mr REED (Treasurer): Mr Speaker, I appreciate the opportunity to clarify a few points made by Mr Booth. First of all, I want to point out the deceitfulness of the Leader of the Opposition, who claimed that Mr Booth said the purchase of the line would be reflected in power costs.
Mr Stirling: Yep.
Mr REED: We have confirmation of that deceit. I thank the Deputy Leader, the mouth, for putting his boss in it.
This was Mr Booth on ABC this morning:
Basically in a set of rules that set the price and conditions for access in future to the Territory’s transmission and distribution system the $43m price - might [‘might’, not ‘would’] find its way in as the accepted asset value and result in increased electricity charges to Territorians.
Little Miss Deceit over here has done it again. She has priors for this. She does it regularly. It is about time people started to wake up to it. She cannot be trusted because she continually twists the facts to suit herself.
I repeat that both the Leader of the Opposition and the Deputy Leader were offered briefings to be able to find out the truth about this. Yesterday they ran out of steam on this issue. They ran out of steam on it because there is nothing left in it for them to pursue. The only reason they brought it up today is because Mr Booth has come up with some more suggestions for them to follow.
Now let’s have a look at what Mr Booth said. He made some specific mention this morning of interest payments, but he did not happen to mention that the interest payments would be affected by the fact that for most of the early years of this project, under a Labor government, interest rates were nudging 20%. He has obviously not factored in those exceedingly high interest rates which the business community remember but the lot opposite conveniently forget, because it was their Labor mates who caused the resulting high costs. That is why the infrastructure is largely like it is, as has been explained in my statement on Tuesday.
Ms Martin interjecting.
Mr REED: The Leader of the Opposition continues to interject. She does not want the people listening or the people in the gallery to hear the facts.
In terms of the regulatory regime, the Utilities Commissioner will determine that. We have given a commitment, both myself and the Minister for Essential Services, that that cost will not be reflected in electricity charges. Can I give you another reason why it won’t? The Utilities Commissioner, I dare say, is going to take into account that the Power and Water Authority - and this was not acknowledged by Dr Booth - will now be deriving an income from this line from anyone who uses it. Obviously NT Power is going to be a customer, so they are going to be getting a return on their asset. In addition to that …
Members interjecting.
Mr REED: You do not like the positive side of the argument, do you?
Mr Stirling: Tell us how much. How long is it going to take to knock off $43m?
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr PALMER: A point of order, Mr Speaker! This side of the House is heartily sick of the continued interjections, especially from the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. I am sure the listening audience are heartily sick of it. I am sure the people in the gallery are heartily sick of it. I ask you to take some action.
Mr SPEAKER: I will decide when action needs to be taken. I have taken action to date in asking them to remain silent. I ask again that members of the opposition refrain from unnecessary interjection. You continually harp on an individual question and keep throwing it across. It is disruptive and it certainly does not help Question Time. We would get through considerably more questions during Question Time if you refrained from so much inane interjection.
Mr REED: Dr Booth - I do not know his credentials - lives a long way away. He might have some experience that is relevant, but he clearly is not aware of the circumstances that had to be taken into account in relation to this particular matter. There are important historical aspects that cannot be ignored. They were detailed …
Mr Stirling: ‘Innovative technology’ that had been used 40 years earlier.
Mr SPEAKER: The member for Nhulunbuy has a very short memory, as well as a very loud voice. I asked you to refrain from interjection.
Mr REED: I ask he show a bit of respect to the school kids in the gallery. They are future Territorians. One day they might be sitting in his spot. He should show a bit more respect …
Ms Martin: They are Territorians now!
MrREED: They are future Territorians in reference to sitting in his job. You have no idea. You sit there and smirk now, making a fool of yourself. Have a bit of respect for the students and show them that you have the ability to do your job.
I want to make another point in relation to the comments made by Dr Booth. He is clearly not aware of the full circumstances that relate to this particular matter. The opposition will obviously be looking to him for some leadership to be able to pursue this matter because they have run down the blind burrows themselves and got nowhere and won’t get anywhere. They won’t accept a full briefing on it because they do not want to get anywhere. They know that will disprove their ability to continue the case in the way that they have.
Dr Booth said this morning:
The Territory government some time ago submitted a proposal to the National Competition Council asking them to certify an access regime and it was refused.
It was not refused. The government continues to negotiate over the access agreement with the National Competition Council. A senior member of the Competition Council was in the Chief Minister’s office only a couple of weeks ago. The Chief Minister and I were party to discussions with him and they are of the view that these matters can be resolved. In terms of where we have come from with the regulatory regime, he was very comfortable with the way the Northern Territory government has been progressing those matters. He stated quite clearly that they were very satisfied with the attitude of the Territory government toward resolving competition policy regimes, and that included the regulatory regime for access to the electricity network.
Our regime has not been refused. There are some outstanding issues on which we continue to provide information to the Competition Council, and they will be resolved. I point that out because clearly Dr Booth, as professional and knowledgeable as he might be on matters wherever he comes from – Perth - is not too au fait with what is going on in the Territory.
I again give Territorians an assurance that the cost of this line will not be reflected in their electricity charges.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016