Ms MARTIN - 1999-04-22
Why does the Chief Minister refuse to introduce real freedom of information legislation which allows Territorians access to information about the incompetent and often corrupt way the Country Liberal Party administers government?
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, the operative words are ‘real’ and ‘freedom’. One of the jokes about this so-called notion of freedom of information legislation is that it purports to lie to the public and suggest that they have unbridled freedom to obtain information on government. That has never been the case in any jurisdiction around Australia and individuals attempting to access information in this way have been continually frustrated in their efforts. Worse, politicians, such as the Labor leader opposite, would suggest, as she did on ABC Radio this morning, that certain actions of government would be available under freedom of information legislation. She quoted the case of the Myilly Point development. Developments that, as you know, are in train at the moment and progressing through the Planning Authority process for eventual approval.
The Leader of the Opposition suggested that under some so-called freedom of information legislation, such as the legislation that’s been introduced into this parliament by the Labor opposition, the sorts of expressions of interest that were put forward by developers, expressions of interest that are commercial-in-confidence, would be, somehow, available to the general public under her notion of freedom of information legislation.
The reality is politicians too often lie to the general public, in my opinion, and suggest to the general public that they will somehow deliver presents that they have no intention of ever delivering. Freedom of information is one of those lies. For example, the legislation introduced by the opposition has a division called ‘Exempt matter’. In that division there are 13 clauses of issues that are exempt from freedom of information. For example, and we might see how the Myilly Point developments fall into these areas, matters concerning certain operations of agencies are exempt, matters communicated in confidence are exempt, matters affecting the economy of the Territory are exempt, matters affecting the financial or property interest are exempt. That’s the reality. Under freedom of information legislation, it is freedom from information and lies to the general public that somehow this information would be available.
I will give you, Mr Speaker, the 13 clauses of exemptions that are in their proposed legislation. Now this is a classic - Cabinet matter. The Goss government, you know full well, got around this one in 1993 and the Courier Mail pursued them diligently. They got around it by saying that everything that was Cabinet matter was exempt from FOI. They even got to the farcical situation where on one occasion they employed a freight plane to take Cabinet documentation out to a Cabinet meeting in Mt Isa so it could all be stacked in the room and therefore would never be available under FOI legislation. That’s the sort of charade the people were dealing with. That’s the sort of charade that governments get up to and yet at the same time, suggests to the general public that this information is available.
These are the 13 clauses of exemption in the Labor proposed legislation …
Ms Martin: You’re pretending to introduce freedom of information legislation.
Mr BURKE: … or Cabinet matter; executive council matters; matters affecting relations with other governments; matters relating to investigations by Ombudsmen or audited by the Attorney-General; matters concerning certain operations of agencies; matters relating to deliberative processes; matters relating to law enforcement or public safety; matters affecting public proceedings; matters affecting personal affairs; matters relating to trade secrets, business affairs and research; matters communicated in confidence - that’s a doozey that one; matters communicated in confidence. Now, just think about it, it takes no effort to have a secretary with a stamp in her hand and go stamp, stamp, stamp on a piece of paper that comes into the office. That’s really simple, you can do it by computer and have the computer automatically put it on …
A member: Part of your letterhead.
Mr BURKE: Matters affecting the economy of the Territory; matters to which secrecy provisions or enactments apply; matters affecting financial or property interests; matters, the disclosure of which would be contempt of parliament or contempt of court.
This is the joke, this is the joke on FOI legislation. It’s the reason why previous Chief Ministers have said it’s been a charade. Therefore we won’t introduce it.
The other thing that happens with freedom of information legislation, is that it invades the privacy of individuals. Under this so-called notion of ‘I need to get this information on government or some certain public affair’, individuals’ privacies are being abused. They are abused more and more in the way this information …
Mr Bailey: Give an example.
Mr BURKE: … is got at. And a good example is the way a convicted murderer in Victoria obtained the information on all the nurses who were on the night shift for the day he was trying to make up an alibi. That’s a clear invasion of privacy under FOI principles, and that’s the sort of stuff this government will not be part of.
What we will do is this. Firstly, we won’t lie to Territorians, that’s the first thing. And we will introduce legislation that gives Territorians what they want, what they need and what they rightly should have. That is what information is being collected on them; how that information is being disseminated; what third party interests are getting access to that information, and, to enable the individual to not only access that information, but also to correct it. That is what 90% of inquiries on FOI interests around Australia is all about. That’s what this legislation will do, and it will also extend itself from, not only to the public sector, but also the private sector, and I believe that is FOI in its purest sense.
In terms of the allegations that somehow this government is secretive in other areas, the reality is this, they have the independent efforts of the Auditor-General, the independent efforts of the Ombudsman, public service guidelines that are in place, the inquiries, ongoing inquiries of the Public Accounts Committee, the ability to access any parliamentarian ...
Mr Bailey: The Public Accounts Committee haven’t had a decent reference in years.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BURKE: ... in a way that can’t be done in other states of Australia. The fact is that we have jurisdictions, small government bureaucracies in comparison to other jurisdictions, and we answer the questions that are put to us as politicians, and we answer them truthfully. And if you give me one example - I’ll put the challenge, I’ve asked Territorians – if you put to me a legitimate question on information that you ...
Mr Bailey: Who authorised $0.25m to be given to the ...
Mr BURKE: ... rightly need to access, and I will find out - I will find ...
Mr Bailey: ... in Indonesia. There’s a question, answer it!
Mr BURKE: ... out why you can’t access that information, if it is a legitimate inquiry. Now, I haven’t received ...
Ms Martin interjecting.
Mr Bailey: A $0.25m of taxpayers’ money, who authorised it?
Mr BURKE: I haven’t received one letter. I haven’t received ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Would the Chief Minister just resume his seat for a moment. The member for Wanguri is testing my patience. I would like to have a standing order that allowed me to lock him in a room with a tape of this debate, and just play it ad infinitum. The Chief Minister is attempting to answer a question but there has been continual interjection, and I would appreciate it if it ceases.
Mr BURKE: Mr Speaker, let us agree to be truthful to Territorians. Let us agree to tell them that the legislation that we propose to trot out will achieve their wishes. Their wishes are to access information, particularly information on themselves. Their interests are to know where that information is being disseminated to third parties, and their interests are to access that information and correct any inaccuracies. That’s the thrust of this legislation, and that will achieve what Territorians desire.
ANSWER
Mr Speaker, the operative words are ‘real’ and ‘freedom’. One of the jokes about this so-called notion of freedom of information legislation is that it purports to lie to the public and suggest that they have unbridled freedom to obtain information on government. That has never been the case in any jurisdiction around Australia and individuals attempting to access information in this way have been continually frustrated in their efforts. Worse, politicians, such as the Labor leader opposite, would suggest, as she did on ABC Radio this morning, that certain actions of government would be available under freedom of information legislation. She quoted the case of the Myilly Point development. Developments that, as you know, are in train at the moment and progressing through the Planning Authority process for eventual approval.
The Leader of the Opposition suggested that under some so-called freedom of information legislation, such as the legislation that’s been introduced into this parliament by the Labor opposition, the sorts of expressions of interest that were put forward by developers, expressions of interest that are commercial-in-confidence, would be, somehow, available to the general public under her notion of freedom of information legislation.
The reality is politicians too often lie to the general public, in my opinion, and suggest to the general public that they will somehow deliver presents that they have no intention of ever delivering. Freedom of information is one of those lies. For example, the legislation introduced by the opposition has a division called ‘Exempt matter’. In that division there are 13 clauses of issues that are exempt from freedom of information. For example, and we might see how the Myilly Point developments fall into these areas, matters concerning certain operations of agencies are exempt, matters communicated in confidence are exempt, matters affecting the economy of the Territory are exempt, matters affecting the financial or property interest are exempt. That’s the reality. Under freedom of information legislation, it is freedom from information and lies to the general public that somehow this information would be available.
I will give you, Mr Speaker, the 13 clauses of exemptions that are in their proposed legislation. Now this is a classic - Cabinet matter. The Goss government, you know full well, got around this one in 1993 and the Courier Mail pursued them diligently. They got around it by saying that everything that was Cabinet matter was exempt from FOI. They even got to the farcical situation where on one occasion they employed a freight plane to take Cabinet documentation out to a Cabinet meeting in Mt Isa so it could all be stacked in the room and therefore would never be available under FOI legislation. That’s the sort of charade the people were dealing with. That’s the sort of charade that governments get up to and yet at the same time, suggests to the general public that this information is available.
These are the 13 clauses of exemption in the Labor proposed legislation …
Ms Martin: You’re pretending to introduce freedom of information legislation.
Mr BURKE: … or Cabinet matter; executive council matters; matters affecting relations with other governments; matters relating to investigations by Ombudsmen or audited by the Attorney-General; matters concerning certain operations of agencies; matters relating to deliberative processes; matters relating to law enforcement or public safety; matters affecting public proceedings; matters affecting personal affairs; matters relating to trade secrets, business affairs and research; matters communicated in confidence - that’s a doozey that one; matters communicated in confidence. Now, just think about it, it takes no effort to have a secretary with a stamp in her hand and go stamp, stamp, stamp on a piece of paper that comes into the office. That’s really simple, you can do it by computer and have the computer automatically put it on …
A member: Part of your letterhead.
Mr BURKE: Matters affecting the economy of the Territory; matters to which secrecy provisions or enactments apply; matters affecting financial or property interests; matters, the disclosure of which would be contempt of parliament or contempt of court.
This is the joke, this is the joke on FOI legislation. It’s the reason why previous Chief Ministers have said it’s been a charade. Therefore we won’t introduce it.
The other thing that happens with freedom of information legislation, is that it invades the privacy of individuals. Under this so-called notion of ‘I need to get this information on government or some certain public affair’, individuals’ privacies are being abused. They are abused more and more in the way this information …
Mr Bailey: Give an example.
Mr BURKE: … is got at. And a good example is the way a convicted murderer in Victoria obtained the information on all the nurses who were on the night shift for the day he was trying to make up an alibi. That’s a clear invasion of privacy under FOI principles, and that’s the sort of stuff this government will not be part of.
What we will do is this. Firstly, we won’t lie to Territorians, that’s the first thing. And we will introduce legislation that gives Territorians what they want, what they need and what they rightly should have. That is what information is being collected on them; how that information is being disseminated; what third party interests are getting access to that information, and, to enable the individual to not only access that information, but also to correct it. That is what 90% of inquiries on FOI interests around Australia is all about. That’s what this legislation will do, and it will also extend itself from, not only to the public sector, but also the private sector, and I believe that is FOI in its purest sense.
In terms of the allegations that somehow this government is secretive in other areas, the reality is this, they have the independent efforts of the Auditor-General, the independent efforts of the Ombudsman, public service guidelines that are in place, the inquiries, ongoing inquiries of the Public Accounts Committee, the ability to access any parliamentarian ...
Mr Bailey: The Public Accounts Committee haven’t had a decent reference in years.
Mr SPEAKER: Order!
Mr BURKE: ... in a way that can’t be done in other states of Australia. The fact is that we have jurisdictions, small government bureaucracies in comparison to other jurisdictions, and we answer the questions that are put to us as politicians, and we answer them truthfully. And if you give me one example - I’ll put the challenge, I’ve asked Territorians – if you put to me a legitimate question on information that you ...
Mr Bailey: Who authorised $0.25m to be given to the ...
Mr BURKE: ... rightly need to access, and I will find out - I will find ...
Mr Bailey: ... in Indonesia. There’s a question, answer it!
Mr BURKE: ... out why you can’t access that information, if it is a legitimate inquiry. Now, I haven’t received ...
Ms Martin interjecting.
Mr Bailey: A $0.25m of taxpayers’ money, who authorised it?
Mr BURKE: I haven’t received one letter. I haven’t received ...
Mr SPEAKER: Order! Would the Chief Minister just resume his seat for a moment. The member for Wanguri is testing my patience. I would like to have a standing order that allowed me to lock him in a room with a tape of this debate, and just play it ad infinitum. The Chief Minister is attempting to answer a question but there has been continual interjection, and I would appreciate it if it ceases.
Mr BURKE: Mr Speaker, let us agree to be truthful to Territorians. Let us agree to tell them that the legislation that we propose to trot out will achieve their wishes. Their wishes are to access information, particularly information on themselves. Their interests are to know where that information is being disseminated to third parties, and their interests are to access that information and correct any inaccuracies. That’s the thrust of this legislation, and that will achieve what Territorians desire.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016