Mr DUNHAM - 1998-12-01
In his capacity as minister responsible for electoral matters, is he aware of the case, part-heard before the Supreme Court, between Labor Party insider Peter Hansen and the Northern Land Council? Is he aware of evidence given on oath of in-kind donations made by the NLC to the ALP, and whether those same donations have been declared in electoral returns as required by law? Further, does he have any information involving a cover-up of the donations by the federal member, Warren Snowdon, and Maggie Hickey in her capacity as leader and deputy leader of the ALP?
ANSWER
Madam Speaker, in response to the laughter from members opposite, I remind them that Peter Hansen is a high-profile Labor insider who was senior staffer to their first leader in this Chamber, Jon Isaacs. If they haven’t heard of him, I am surprised. But he was also ...
Members interjecting.
Mr Coulter: You didn’t say that about him when he stood for Jingili.
Mr STONE: That is exactly my next point. This is their former endorsed candidate for Jingili in 1980. This is pretty serious stuff.
Mr Bailey: That was before you were even in the Territory, Shane!
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STONE: That hasn’t bothered you up to now.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order on both sides!
Mrs Hickey: You really are going down memory lane now.
Madam SPEAKER: Let us have the answer in silence.
Mr STONE: To pick up the Leader of the Opposition, it is a good example of going down memory lane, because a fraud has been perpetrated by your federal member, aided and abetted by you as I will demonstrate.
He was their candidate in 1980 and he went on to become senior private secretary to the federal Labor Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, Senator Gietzelt. Make no mistake, this man knows the Labor Party inside out - all the rotten deals and all the scams. He was employed by the NLC from 16 December 1992 to 5 March 1993. Is that early enough for you? 1992-93, is that the same window of opportunity? All right, you’re happy to respond to that.
Hansen has been over in the Supreme Court singing his heart out. He brought an action in the Supreme Court against the NLC for his dismissal, and the case has already received some airing in the local media. I propose to raise a number of the issues already canvassed in the case during the course of these sittings.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister, are you going to comment on a case that is current at the moment?
Mr STONE: I am, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Then can I just ask a few questions to clarify? Is this a civil or a criminal case?
Mr STONE: This is a civil matter.
Madam SPEAKER: Is it being heard by a judge or a jury?
Mr STONE: It is being heard by a judge alone.
Madam SPEAKER: And you’re quite sure, as Attorney-General, that your comments won’t prejudice the outcome of this case?
Mr STONE: This is not a criminal matter. I propose to raise a number of issues. The issue raised by the member ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Member for Wanguri.
Mr Bailey: Two can play at this game, Shane.
Madam SPEAKER: My patience is getting shorter. Order!
Mr STONE: The issue raised by the member for Drysdale centres on undisclosed secret donations made to the ALP in the Territory. These are serious matters and they do attract hefty penalties.
I table the transcript of proceedings of the Supreme Court on 17, 18 and 19 October. I will make a copy available to the Leader of the Opposition now so that she can follow me through it. I invite the Leader of the Opposition to turn to pages 77 and 78. I have marked them for the Leader of the Opposition, who obviously has no interest in the matter. I will press on regardless. I read from the transcript:
If I could then take you to 7 January 1993, on that occasion - on that date, I should say - did a visit take place at the offices of the Northern Land Council from Mr Snowdon and Mr Doolan?
Yes.
At that time, what was Mr Snowdon’s position?
He was member for the Northern Territory.
And what was Mr Doolan’s position?
He was his senior electorate officer.
Did Mr Snowdon and Mr Doolan meet with Mr Dodson?
They did.
Were you present at any stage during the meeting between the 3 of those men?
Yes. Soon after they arrived in the director’s office, the director came to my office and asked me to join the meeting.
What was discussed during that meeting?
Warren Snowdon started off by saying that the election was imminent. He thought it would only be a matter of weeks away and he said to Mick: ‘As in past practice, what can you do to help me get re-elected?’
And did Mr Dodson respond to that?
Yes. He said: ‘We’ll do the usual stuff.’ He said: ‘We’ll help as much as possible with vehicles and staff but we’ll help with the mobile polling’. Then he turned to me and said: ‘And Peter will give you whatever help he can in promoting your re-election through Land Rights News’.
And what was your response to that?
I said: ‘Yeah, I’ll certainly do that.
That is the first of the quotes. I now invite the Leader of the Opposition to go to pages 79 and 80.
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! If the Chief Minister wishes to make a ministerial statement about this, that’s fine, but this is Question Time and he has already had 5 minutes.
Madam SPEAKER: The length of an answer is at the discretion of the minister, as long as it is relevant to the question. We do not have a time limit.
Ms Martin interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Are you arguing with me?
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! It has been ruled in the past that 5 minutes is an appropriate time …
Madam SPEAKER: We have not. There is no point of order.
Mr STONE: You lot must be embarrassed by this. Madam Speaker, I quote from page 79:
I then had a meeting with Tony Haritos and this is when we firmed up the date for the first issue [of Land Rights News], and the date was to be 11 February ’cause Snowdon was told, you know, ‘Look, this …’ and it confirmed my view. I was - by this stage there’d been an enormous amount of speculation going on in the press about when the election would be called. I formed the view that it was going to be 28 February.
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: This is important. You breached the Electoral Act and you do not want to hear about it.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr STONE: ‘You’re in fairyland’, he interjects. It is on the record. You’re a bunch of crooks and you have been caught. This is evidence on oath and it fingers you lot. It goes on to talk about how the Land Right News is going to be used ...
Mr Bailey: … corrupt money, through the CLP.
Mr STONE: I ask for that remark to be withdrawn.
Madam SPEAKER: Member for Wanguri, withdraw that remark.
Mr Bailey: I withdraw the remark.
Madam SPEAKER: Oppositionmembers, your interjections are going over the top. I am just about to put warnings to people and put you out. I cannot put up with it any longer.
Mr STONE: He is then asked about the relationship between Dodson and Haritos and himself, and he says:
Oh, it was very good, very jovial. Tony was well aware of the interaction between the Labor Party and the land council. He was great mates with the journalist who was working for the Northern Territory opposition leader. They had worked together on various campaigns, I think, by this stage and Tony well and truly knew the ropes. He knew Snowdon very well, so it was fine. He knew what was expected of him.
Mr AH KIT: A point of order, Madam Speaker! We have an important Question Time and the Chief Minister is going on with information that is before the court. The Northern Land Council’s Mick Dodson has not had an opportunity to respond to those remarks.
Mr Stone: He has been cross-examined.
Mr AH KIT: He has not been cross-examined, and he has not had a chance to respond to those comments by Hansen. I think it is irrelevant for the Chief Minister to bring it up and waste an important Question Time.
Mr Stone: You ought to be sweating over this. You are the former executive director.
Madam SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Chief Minister, conclude your answer.
Mr STONE: I now table copies of the electoral returns of the Labor Party, and I provide copies to the Leader of the Opposition so that she has an opportunity to peruse them. The importance of these documents is that there is no disclosure, as required, of in-kind donations by the Northern Land Council to the ALP. I table the Commonwealth Electoral Act and draw the attention of members to division 4 in particular. I make a copy of that available to the Leader of the Opposition. I also produce an extract from the Funding and Disclosure Handbook for Candidates and draw the attention of the Leader of the Opposition to pages 20 and 21.
Well may she smile, but the fact is that she is a member of the administrative committee and, according to my information, she was full-bottle on all of this.
There are clear requirements under the act to make full disclosure of such matters as ‘work undertaken for a candidate by an employee during normal working hours where the employer continues to pay salary or wages, but not if the employee takes paid leave to work for the candidate’ and the free use of a motor vehicle. You’re going to have trouble explaining all that away.
I do not intend to provide the Leader of the Opposition with a copy of her own rules, but I do have a set dated 1992, which is relevant, because this is leading into the election at that time. I remind members that Mrs Hickey was the Deputy Leader of the Opposition for the better part of 1994 and 1995. She became Leader of the Opposition, I am told, on 16 April 1996. My information is that she was well and truly in the frame ...
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! We have now had 10 minutes ...
Madam SPEAKER: You know there are no time limits on answers.
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, you told the Chief Minister to wind it up, and he goes on and on.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister, complete your answer.
Mr STONE: I am coming to the end of this. This was a contrived and organised rort that has been carried on by the Labor Party.
Mrs Hickey: Rubbish!
Mr STONE: Well, you can laugh.
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr STONE: I am glad you made the interjection. If you had bothered to ask the Australian Electoral Commission, you would find that the CLP’s returns are held up as exemplary.
I return to the issue here because it begs the question, what comprised ‘the usual stuff’? What was ‘past practice’? What have you done subsequently? Will you make a disclosure of in-kind donations following the election just held. The moment you do that, of course, you will confirm the practice that you in the Labor Party have engaged in to defraud the Northern Territory electorate. I table copies of letters that have been written to Mr Bill Gray ...
Mr STIRLING: A point of order, Madam Speaker! If he wants to make an allegation of fraudulent behaviour or use the term ‘defraud’ he should do so by way of substantive motion. I ask that he withdraw.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister …
Mr STONE: It was the party I referred to, Madam Speaker, but if anyone takes it personally, I withdraw it.
I now table copies of letters to Mr Bill Gray, the Australian Electoral Commissioner, Senator Chris Ellison, Special Minister of State who has responsibility for electoral matters, and Senator John Herron. I have called for this matter to be referred to the Australian Federal Police, including the role of the federal member and the Leader of the Opposition for their contrived cover-up of political donations over at least 4 federal elections.
You have been caught. You have been condemned. You have been exposed by one of your own.
ANSWER
Madam Speaker, in response to the laughter from members opposite, I remind them that Peter Hansen is a high-profile Labor insider who was senior staffer to their first leader in this Chamber, Jon Isaacs. If they haven’t heard of him, I am surprised. But he was also ...
Members interjecting.
Mr Coulter: You didn’t say that about him when he stood for Jingili.
Mr STONE: That is exactly my next point. This is their former endorsed candidate for Jingili in 1980. This is pretty serious stuff.
Mr Bailey: That was before you were even in the Territory, Shane!
Madam SPEAKER: Order!
Mr STONE: That hasn’t bothered you up to now.
Members interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order on both sides!
Mrs Hickey: You really are going down memory lane now.
Madam SPEAKER: Let us have the answer in silence.
Mr STONE: To pick up the Leader of the Opposition, it is a good example of going down memory lane, because a fraud has been perpetrated by your federal member, aided and abetted by you as I will demonstrate.
He was their candidate in 1980 and he went on to become senior private secretary to the federal Labor Minister for Veterans’ Affairs, Senator Gietzelt. Make no mistake, this man knows the Labor Party inside out - all the rotten deals and all the scams. He was employed by the NLC from 16 December 1992 to 5 March 1993. Is that early enough for you? 1992-93, is that the same window of opportunity? All right, you’re happy to respond to that.
Hansen has been over in the Supreme Court singing his heart out. He brought an action in the Supreme Court against the NLC for his dismissal, and the case has already received some airing in the local media. I propose to raise a number of the issues already canvassed in the case during the course of these sittings.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister, are you going to comment on a case that is current at the moment?
Mr STONE: I am, Madam Speaker.
Madam SPEAKER: Then can I just ask a few questions to clarify? Is this a civil or a criminal case?
Mr STONE: This is a civil matter.
Madam SPEAKER: Is it being heard by a judge or a jury?
Mr STONE: It is being heard by a judge alone.
Madam SPEAKER: And you’re quite sure, as Attorney-General, that your comments won’t prejudice the outcome of this case?
Mr STONE: This is not a criminal matter. I propose to raise a number of issues. The issue raised by the member ...
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Order! Member for Wanguri.
Mr Bailey: Two can play at this game, Shane.
Madam SPEAKER: My patience is getting shorter. Order!
Mr STONE: The issue raised by the member for Drysdale centres on undisclosed secret donations made to the ALP in the Territory. These are serious matters and they do attract hefty penalties.
I table the transcript of proceedings of the Supreme Court on 17, 18 and 19 October. I will make a copy available to the Leader of the Opposition now so that she can follow me through it. I invite the Leader of the Opposition to turn to pages 77 and 78. I have marked them for the Leader of the Opposition, who obviously has no interest in the matter. I will press on regardless. I read from the transcript:
If I could then take you to 7 January 1993, on that occasion - on that date, I should say - did a visit take place at the offices of the Northern Land Council from Mr Snowdon and Mr Doolan?
Yes.
At that time, what was Mr Snowdon’s position?
He was member for the Northern Territory.
And what was Mr Doolan’s position?
He was his senior electorate officer.
Did Mr Snowdon and Mr Doolan meet with Mr Dodson?
They did.
Were you present at any stage during the meeting between the 3 of those men?
Yes. Soon after they arrived in the director’s office, the director came to my office and asked me to join the meeting.
What was discussed during that meeting?
Warren Snowdon started off by saying that the election was imminent. He thought it would only be a matter of weeks away and he said to Mick: ‘As in past practice, what can you do to help me get re-elected?’
And did Mr Dodson respond to that?
Yes. He said: ‘We’ll do the usual stuff.’ He said: ‘We’ll help as much as possible with vehicles and staff but we’ll help with the mobile polling’. Then he turned to me and said: ‘And Peter will give you whatever help he can in promoting your re-election through Land Rights News’.
And what was your response to that?
I said: ‘Yeah, I’ll certainly do that.
That is the first of the quotes. I now invite the Leader of the Opposition to go to pages 79 and 80.
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! If the Chief Minister wishes to make a ministerial statement about this, that’s fine, but this is Question Time and he has already had 5 minutes.
Madam SPEAKER: The length of an answer is at the discretion of the minister, as long as it is relevant to the question. We do not have a time limit.
Ms Martin interjecting.
Madam SPEAKER: Are you arguing with me?
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! It has been ruled in the past that 5 minutes is an appropriate time …
Madam SPEAKER: We have not. There is no point of order.
Mr STONE: You lot must be embarrassed by this. Madam Speaker, I quote from page 79:
I then had a meeting with Tony Haritos and this is when we firmed up the date for the first issue [of Land Rights News], and the date was to be 11 February ’cause Snowdon was told, you know, ‘Look, this …’ and it confirmed my view. I was - by this stage there’d been an enormous amount of speculation going on in the press about when the election would be called. I formed the view that it was going to be 28 February.
Members interjecting.
Mr STONE: This is important. You breached the Electoral Act and you do not want to hear about it.
Mr Stirling interjecting.
Mr STONE: ‘You’re in fairyland’, he interjects. It is on the record. You’re a bunch of crooks and you have been caught. This is evidence on oath and it fingers you lot. It goes on to talk about how the Land Right News is going to be used ...
Mr Bailey: … corrupt money, through the CLP.
Mr STONE: I ask for that remark to be withdrawn.
Madam SPEAKER: Member for Wanguri, withdraw that remark.
Mr Bailey: I withdraw the remark.
Madam SPEAKER: Oppositionmembers, your interjections are going over the top. I am just about to put warnings to people and put you out. I cannot put up with it any longer.
Mr STONE: He is then asked about the relationship between Dodson and Haritos and himself, and he says:
Oh, it was very good, very jovial. Tony was well aware of the interaction between the Labor Party and the land council. He was great mates with the journalist who was working for the Northern Territory opposition leader. They had worked together on various campaigns, I think, by this stage and Tony well and truly knew the ropes. He knew Snowdon very well, so it was fine. He knew what was expected of him.
Mr AH KIT: A point of order, Madam Speaker! We have an important Question Time and the Chief Minister is going on with information that is before the court. The Northern Land Council’s Mick Dodson has not had an opportunity to respond to those remarks.
Mr Stone: He has been cross-examined.
Mr AH KIT: He has not been cross-examined, and he has not had a chance to respond to those comments by Hansen. I think it is irrelevant for the Chief Minister to bring it up and waste an important Question Time.
Mr Stone: You ought to be sweating over this. You are the former executive director.
Madam SPEAKER: There is no point of order. Chief Minister, conclude your answer.
Mr STONE: I now table copies of the electoral returns of the Labor Party, and I provide copies to the Leader of the Opposition so that she has an opportunity to peruse them. The importance of these documents is that there is no disclosure, as required, of in-kind donations by the Northern Land Council to the ALP. I table the Commonwealth Electoral Act and draw the attention of members to division 4 in particular. I make a copy of that available to the Leader of the Opposition. I also produce an extract from the Funding and Disclosure Handbook for Candidates and draw the attention of the Leader of the Opposition to pages 20 and 21.
Well may she smile, but the fact is that she is a member of the administrative committee and, according to my information, she was full-bottle on all of this.
There are clear requirements under the act to make full disclosure of such matters as ‘work undertaken for a candidate by an employee during normal working hours where the employer continues to pay salary or wages, but not if the employee takes paid leave to work for the candidate’ and the free use of a motor vehicle. You’re going to have trouble explaining all that away.
I do not intend to provide the Leader of the Opposition with a copy of her own rules, but I do have a set dated 1992, which is relevant, because this is leading into the election at that time. I remind members that Mrs Hickey was the Deputy Leader of the Opposition for the better part of 1994 and 1995. She became Leader of the Opposition, I am told, on 16 April 1996. My information is that she was well and truly in the frame ...
Ms MARTIN: A point of order, Madam Speaker! We have now had 10 minutes ...
Madam SPEAKER: You know there are no time limits on answers.
Ms MARTIN: Madam Speaker, you told the Chief Minister to wind it up, and he goes on and on.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister, complete your answer.
Mr STONE: I am coming to the end of this. This was a contrived and organised rort that has been carried on by the Labor Party.
Mrs Hickey: Rubbish!
Mr STONE: Well, you can laugh.
Mr Bailey interjecting.
Mr STONE: I am glad you made the interjection. If you had bothered to ask the Australian Electoral Commission, you would find that the CLP’s returns are held up as exemplary.
I return to the issue here because it begs the question, what comprised ‘the usual stuff’? What was ‘past practice’? What have you done subsequently? Will you make a disclosure of in-kind donations following the election just held. The moment you do that, of course, you will confirm the practice that you in the Labor Party have engaged in to defraud the Northern Territory electorate. I table copies of letters that have been written to Mr Bill Gray ...
Mr STIRLING: A point of order, Madam Speaker! If he wants to make an allegation of fraudulent behaviour or use the term ‘defraud’ he should do so by way of substantive motion. I ask that he withdraw.
Madam SPEAKER: Chief Minister …
Mr STONE: It was the party I referred to, Madam Speaker, but if anyone takes it personally, I withdraw it.
I now table copies of letters to Mr Bill Gray, the Australian Electoral Commissioner, Senator Chris Ellison, Special Minister of State who has responsibility for electoral matters, and Senator John Herron. I have called for this matter to be referred to the Australian Federal Police, including the role of the federal member and the Leader of the Opposition for their contrived cover-up of political donations over at least 4 federal elections.
You have been caught. You have been condemned. You have been exposed by one of your own.
Last updated: 09 Aug 2016